 With him, it was more about him and he had small groups and they didn't last over time. But with Ellington and Basie, it was a trade-off for the Sidemen. If you were with the Basie band or the Ellington band, it was the kind of experience that could make your career. You would be known forever in a way that if you were out there on your own would have been tougher to be known because you were part of the great Duke Ellington or Count Basie. On the other hand, you would watch Ellington live