 But about 15 years ago, I decided that I wanted to actually meet with white nationalists and have conversations with them, understand their journey into that ideology and that worldview. And I could go on for hours telling you about that very bizarre experience in my life, but for me it was transformative in part because I think I went into it thinking, these people are monsters, I'm never going to understand them. And as I actually started to have conversations with people, did life history interviews with them, understood their entire life stories,