 You played three seasons for the Iowa Barnstormers of the Arena Football League, and then you got the opportunity in the NFL. You landed your first NFL roster spot in 98 with the Rams. Tell me about the first time you met Dick Vermeule. Well, I mean, the first time I met Dick wasn't even really at my tryout. I did my tryout for the Rams and didn't even meet Dick at that particular time. So it was once I signed with the Rams and I came back from NFL Europe and