 live shows but what i really want is to find those special songs like the last one you played there where it's like where it's sort of undeniable or it occupies that sort of undeniable space and when you have a few of those and you have someone like afy who won't sort of put up with sort of second best then then you've then you're sort of on the right track i'm tom power you're listening to q coming up more of my conversation with folk musician old man ludica