 She was never indicted, was she? Ruth was never indicted. And there is certainly no evidence that she knew it was a Ponzi scheme. But again, the whole thing's filthy. At what point? I mean, this is sort of like just a filthy operation. There's stuff going on all the time that's wrong. Well, we have to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Behar. His new book is called Madoff, The Final Word. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.