 So they really do have that lower taxable income. And they fall in there. And so it's a planning opportunity, actually, on the investment side if you need to capture some gains. So it's not something that they're able to take advantage of every year in retirement, but sometimes because of the timing of the income. There's a chunk of time, usually, is the way I would present it. As a chunk of time, maybe while you're waiting to take some Social Security or delaying a pension or something like that.