 is far deeper than you would even dream of. People get so angry at me because I interview them over and over again, and I say, but if I were standing there next to you, what would I see? They get really angry. I told you what I would see. I was standing in the Oval Office and Lyndon Johnson was walking around, and you say, well, what would I see? So I'll tell you one example of what that can do. Joe Califano was Johnson's chief domestic advisor.