 Because it makes them feel like they're a failure if they go in to take Joe Spice off. Well, Joe, I think I need to do this. And they see the amount of debt. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes people think that's a judgment on them. And they're reluctant to move forward with refinancing because it seems like that's a bailout. They seem to think that, well, let me just, you know, when I get this out of the way, I'm going to do it. But they keep sinking deeper and deeper. Correct. But it's...