That is, even if you are losing, and have no chance win, the determination of the actual winner often does matter, especially after the game/election/whatever ends. One winner will be greatly preferred to another (at least by the "loser").
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# Unsporting trades in the end-game of settlers of Catan

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Oftentimes in a big game of Settlers of Catan (4 or more players) it comes down to two or three players battling for the winning point and one or two players who have too few points to offer any realistic chance of victory.

Rather than just watch, the losing players are free to make overly generous trades to control who wins in a weird inversion of control.

Is this a natural side effect of the games? Is this just a manifestation of be nice to people on the way up?

I find this really frustrating as more than once I've ended up losing because I've annoyed someone in a previous game. Am I just being a poor sport?

The only way I can think to avoid this style of play is to run a league setup such than even if a player isn't going to win, it's worth them trying to get an extra few more points.

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HNJSlater

asked Feb 24, 2014 at 1:25

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CommentedFeb 24, 2014 at 1:57

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I personally think that, if I'm not winning a game, the ability to influence who does win helps a lot to keep the end of the game interesting. Though I usually do it while still trying to maximize my position at the end.

CommentedFeb 24, 2014 at 2:02

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For me personally, I just let my friends know that Kingmaking is in my opinion poor sportsmanship, and it makes the games less enjoyable; thus I am less likely to want to play games with a person that is known to do it.

CommentedFeb 24, 2014 at 3:30

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@JoeW: consider a player who says "I will king-make against anyone who obstructs me in the early game". If people re-evaluate their playing style so that this player doesn't want to keep them from winning (i.e., if they avoid obstructing that player early in the game), then that player gets an advantage from making the threat. It doesn't seem sensible to intentionally reward such threats :-) I'd consider the threat completely legitimate in Diplomacy, and an intended part of the game, but I'm not so sure about Settlers.

CommentedNov 24, 2015 at 14:04

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... so in general if someone's holding grudges against me from game to game, then it could be that they consider a series of games in the same way, and are using their influence on the end-game to strengthen their position in future games by following through on the "consequences" (i.e. punishment) of opposing them. It's quite likely that at least one of the two of us is being needlessly obnoxious but even if so it's probably not clear to the players which it is (or if it's both).

CommentedNov 24, 2015 at 14:07

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This situation is called The Kingmaker Scenario. It is an effect that is largely seen as being undesirable in games, yet at the same time is also considered somewhat inevitable in games with 3 or more sides in a Free-For-All situation to at least some extent. Game designers are always trying to find ways to fight against this effect, and there are a number of ways to reduce the effect that Kingmaker has on the game when designing a game - here are a few examples:

- Completely eliminate a player from the game after they are behind by a certain threshold
- Create a "comeback mechanic" that allows a player to fight back against the feedback loop holding them in a low position
- Using concealed information to make it more difficult to determine the values involved in the victory conditions

When dealing with a pre-made game like Settlers of Catan and not with a game of your own creation, your options are limited - you can either create house rules of some form, or simply accept that aspect of the game. It may be best to try and find what others have done to solve the same situation for the same game - if it is widely considered to be a problem by other players, than there may be popular and well-tested house rules that already exist. On the other hand, if there are not, it may be a sign that regular players do not consider it to be a major factor in play.

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answered Feb 24, 2014 at 22:03

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Good answer. Multiplayer dynamics are a tough thing, and while ameritrash games ebrace the in-game politics and kingmaking, Euros usually try to fight it, but its not easy. For example, concealed information does not solve the problem. If a player simply has a perception he is behind, he may alter his play. Strong comeback and balancing mechanics make players try to lay low and only pounce at the win in the last turns, in order to enjoy the boost for being low and avoid leaderbashing. Player elimination is a problem with games that are 30+ minutes. Kingmaking is a difficult problem to solve!

CommentedFeb 25, 2014 at 8:32

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How about leagues? Keeping track of total victory points would lead to players always working towards getting more VP even if they can't win. But does that break the dynamics? Encourage players to go for the safe points and let someone else win?

CommentedFeb 25, 2014 at 23:36

- @HNJSlater If people are allowed to do whatever they please in the rules, you have to count on them making any of the legal choices, and that includes having vendettas against other people.

CommentedFeb 25, 2014 at 23:50

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As a house rule or "meta" you need to decide between:

- the "loser" will play for 2nd place, 3rd place, and so on, if they believe they can't win. If all else fails, they will try to get the most points they can. (Technically this is probabilistic: better to take slim odds for first than settle for a guaranteed second.)
- kingmaking is allowed, which gives the game a more cutthroat flavor. But you need to be honest about this and accept it and the competitive feeling that comes with it.

Settlers of Catan encourages kingmaking and headbutting. Almost every action can be interfered with negatively by another player. Even playing the "gentle" way it still feels more competitive than other competitive games.

If this is tiring, there's zillions of other board games that are alike in theming, complexity, analysis, game length, etc., but have the players compete in parallel most of the time with less opportunities to directly interfere. Don't "fix" Settlers. The problem is fixed by diversifying the games you play.

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answered Jan 28, 2015 at 2:13

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- You seem to be using "vindication" to mean "vindictiveness".

CommentedFeb 14, 2021 at 3:56

- @Acccumulation fixed and yes that is a documented grammar issue of mine :P

CommentedMar 21, 2021 at 18:16

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Kingmaking is a dynamic which means the leaders of the game should be making un-even trades to the people in last place to help them along. If you help a person in last place build some additional settlements they will still be trying to win the game, rather than bored with no hope of victory in sight.

What is a rational trade when you have no chance of winning? Ending the game as soon as possible is pretty rational when you are so far behind you have no chance to come back. If you want to avoid this, don't let people fall so far behind. You can do this by trading at only marginal benefit to yourself and large benefit to them. Normally you would only swap 1:1 if its going to let you gain a VP next turn, but if someone is miles behind, you might swap 1:1 with someone just to gain a slightly better hand, or even 2:1 to avoid having 8 cards for the robber.

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answered Feb 24, 2014 at 15:10

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- I cant really see how this adresses the issue. One player doing bad-for-himself trades with the worst players just cripples his efforts to win. Any opponent fighting for first place and NOT doing such a thing should automatically win, not having an additional resource burden. That way YOU would be the kingmaker, in a way.

CommentedFeb 25, 2014 at 8:27

- I'm not saying to do trades which are bad for you, but normally there are many trades offered which are slightly good for one player, and very good for another. If you do those trades with players in lower positions, then you will benefit and you won't leave disgruntled people stuck on 3 settlements.

CommentedFeb 25, 2014 at 9:35

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"kingmaking" is a feature of a number of board games, including Setters of Catan. More to the point, it is an important concept in "real life."

That is, even if you are losing, and have no chance win, the determination of the actual winner often does matter, especially after the game/election/whatever ends. One winner will be greatly preferred to another (at least by the "loser").

Perhaps players can "formalize" this by having "house rules" that give "second prize" or something to the "kingmaker. In "Diplomacy," for instance, the winner needs to have 18 (out of 34) supply centers, but one version of house rules says that any group of three or fewer (a minority of seven) can declare themselves "co-winners" by reaching 18. One player with two supply centers managed to be included in a "winner's circle" with two other players totalling 16.

Even when they don't get first prize, playing kingmaker is an important skill (and play "with" a kingmaker an equally important one). One real life "kingmaker" game was the 1824 Presidential election, where John Quincy Adams and Andrew Jackson were the front runners, with Daniel Webster and Henry Clay running far behind. Clay threw his support behind Adams (enabling him to surpass Jackson) and was rewarded with the Secretary of State.

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answered Jan 27, 2015 at 22:07

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We solve this problem by keeping a running score. Individual games don't matter as much as the entire session.

For example, consider a session of three players where player one has won three games, player two zero games, and player three one game. If I am player two and I become kingmaker, I would help player three. This is because if player one wins, he will have a 4-0 lead on me, while if player three wins, I will trail the leader by 3-0.

Kingmaking is part of the game, and it is inevitable in Settlers of Catan. Few people like to lose, and those who hate losing would prefer the winner to be the person they consider the least threat to their status.

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answered Jan 31, 2015 at 13:54

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- This solves most of the problem, but of course it can still happen in the first game, or whenever else it's tied.

CommentedAug 11, 2016 at 13:48

- It can also still happen if the kingmaker falls way behind in the overall score.

CommentedJun 6, 2021 at 10:12

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To reduce kingmaking, one suggestion is that when a player gets to 8 victory points, assuming you are playing to 10, only the resources they gain from the first trade of their roll may be played. Any resources gained from subsequent trade should be placed in front of them and not able to be used until their next roll. Also, set trade limits of 1:1, 2:1 or 3:2 and require the trader to use a port if they own one first. We have seen too many times in our games where 2 players gang up on the leader (which is fine) to prevent them from winning, only to have them keep giving the #2 player more resources to actually win. This ruins the game's objective that all players should be playing to win IMHO, not who the eventual winner *should be.

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answered Feb 11, 2021 at 12:33

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Play a strategy that ensures you get most of the development cards. Make sure you have all the sheep, ore and wheat you need and focus on blocking these resources for other players throughout the game.

You will control the robber, so the kingmaker at least can't use that tool. Furthermore, your opponent can't target you with the robber.

So when you're at, say 8/8 with another player (the competitor) and the kingmaker player is identified, target the kingmaker with the robber instead of the competitor. The kingmaker has limited resources anyway, so take them off her so she has little or nothing to give away. You will have a better-than-even chance of winning (due to having the stolen cards and your competitor not having those cards) instead of advantage going to your competitor and even if you lose, you will have the satisfaction of frustrating the kingmaker.

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answered Jun 6, 2021 at 9:32

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This doesn't do anything to solve kingmaking and it won't work at all if you are unable to get development cards. I really don't see how this answers the question.

CommentedJun 6, 2021 at 12:56

- It certainly does work and if your focus exclusively on hexes with sheep, ore and wheat, how is anyone going to stop you getting dev cards?

CommentedJun 6, 2021 at 14:34

- I never said it couldn't work. All I said was this answer only applies if you can get a certain strategy to work which could be hard if others are trying for the same. Having to rely on something that others can also do and prevent you from doing isn't going to work all of the time.

CommentedJun 6, 2021 at 14:43

- Sure, there are some board setups that won't support it easily. I usually try to do something with the harbours to compensate. Most of the time it can be accommodated. I've yet to come across anyone else trying something similar. They're usually too set on their lumber and brick and trading addictions.

CommentedJun 6, 2021 at 15:02

- I think you're answering the question from the wrong side. The question is asking how to change the game or otherwise encourage the players in the kingmaking positions to avoid spiteful play. Your post about how to play while winning doesn't actually address the problem in the question.

CommentedJun 14, 2021 at 18:56

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