A book that focusses on just the winning moves is " Competitive Judo" by Angus. Instead of teaching everything, it just teaches the moves that account for over 80% of victories. This is kind of similar to the Strongfirst philosophy.
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# Other/MixedTaking up Judo at 50

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

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#### Bonkin

##### Level 3 Valued Member

I didn't want to derail @Kozushi thread on Technique vs. Strength. But seeing his thread reminded me that I wanted to ask for advice here.

I did a few months of Judo as a teenager, enjoyed it, got a belt or two. Then tried Wing Chun for 3-4 months earlier this year - wasn't really my thing. My athletic background is almost exclusively endurance (marathon, ultra-marathon, long distance cycling) with a brief smattering of powerlifting type stuff - but haven't done any of that in a few years.

Anyway, I've been contemplating getting back to martial arts for a couple weeks and have done many hours of reading up on some styles and schools nearby. Last week, I did a trial class at a Hapkido school and then observed a Judo class the next night (they require you to observe at least once before any trial). I'm not completely ruling out the Hapkido - but it looks a little complicated for my tastes, so I decided yesterday that I would join the Judo club and see how it goes.

Right now, my main goals are to lose some more weight and achieve Simple. I realize that doing judo 2-3 times a week will likely wear me down such that I have to cut out an S&S practice or two in order to recover.

My question for those that care to share: what should I be aware of, think about, work on to help make sure I'm able to S&S and Judo 2-3 months (or hopefully longer) from now?

#### TravisDirks

##### Level 3 Valued Member

I expect you'll get some more experienced answers, but here is what occurs to me.

S&S will make a lot of things sturdy and prep you well. A couple things that might be missing:

- find some lateral side to side acceleration/movement. There is so little in life that when we get in a chaotic sport environment after years our various knee ligaments can get a rude shock. One example might be tieing a rope around your waist and a sandbag and dragging it sideways. Think defense in basketball. Hopping back and forth sideways over a small obstical might help as well.

- if you hadn't rolled in years I'd suggest some rolling on the ground. Easy diagonal rolls and work up to standing.

Btw: exciting idea, have fun with it!

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#### Kozushi

##### Level 7 Valued Member

S&S made me 600% better at judo.

You are doing exactly the right thing.

You can't do S&S and judo on the same day.

If you are too tired sometimes to do both the swings and the getups, then just do the swings. Both exercises help judo marvelously but the swings are more important by far.

Also, it's the one armed swings that are most useful for judo - moreso than the two handed swings.

I'll give you a few little starting tips:

1. The scarf hold is the best hold down (called "kesa-gatame"). (It is also the best submission move, in my opinion - you can turn it into a lung compression!!! I've used it in tourneys before.)

2. The shoulder throw is the best throw (called "seoi-nage").

Learn those two and focus on them. Like in S&S there are just two moves, so for judo - you know those and that's most of judo right there!!!

If you find the falling in judo to be annoying, then try out BJJ, which is judo without falling down.

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#### Bonkin

##### Level 3 Valued Member

I will try to take these things into account as I start down this path.

Kozushi, I did want to ask based on your advice in the other thread ... any recommendations on good beginner books to start with?

I'm a little nervous about the falls - but they tell me that until I learn the beginner ropes and how to fall, I won't be allowed to be the "rag doll" (my word - not theirs). I'm sure it will be fine once I learn the basics.

#### Kozushi

##### Level 7 Valued Member

The bible of judo is " Kodokan Judo" by Jigoro Kano.

One of his key students who later became the guru of judo wrote " The Canon of Judo" - by Kyuzo Mifune. It develops and refines the art further.

" Best Judo" by Inokuma and Sato takes it all further and gets into the use of weightlifting to further technique.

To my knowledge, the American take on the sport is best described in " Judo Unleashed" by Ohlenkamp. This analyzes everything about it philosophically and scientifically - in the American way of using the mind to figure everything out and to not just rely on tradition and authority.

A book that focusses on just the winning moves is " Competitive Judo" by Angus. Instead of teaching everything, it just teaches the moves that account for over 80% of victories. This is kind of similar to the Strongfirst philosophy.

Anyhow, from my perspective, all throws are just variants of the shoulder throw (seoi nage) and all groundholds are really just variations of what you learn from the scarf hold (kesa gatame).

For groundfighting in particular " Passing the Guard" by Beneville and Cartnell is excellent.

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#### Bonkin

##### Level 3 Valued Member

Thank you VERY much, Kozushi! I've ordered the first one and will look at getting the others as I go (I still have a pile of unfinished reading to clear out).

#### ShawnM

##### Level 9 Valued Member

I would look at BJJ instead of Judo. Judo is a great art however, it is brutal on the body. I started Judo at 35 and had a hard time being able to train much else just do to the pounding from the throws. At 45 I wouldn't dream of it. I do BJJ a few times a week now. I can do pretty much whatever I want along with the rolling. If I find that I am wore down at any point I can drill instead of rolling with the 25 year old SOF guys or former wrestlers ( or both, the worst combo for an old guy).

Either way, your learning a great art to take care of yourself and be healthier. Best of luck with your training.

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#### Kozushi

##### Level 7 Valued Member

The first one has asolutely everything in it, including arcane katas, striking targets, and weapons too! It's the very best one and the only one you'll ever need.

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#### Kozushi

##### Level 7 Valued Member

I agree. I think judo senseis need to adjust their methods for older people - basically turn it into BJJ, hahaha - what I mean is to focus on groundwork, but still gently train throws a bit and some standing randori (fighting).

BJJ is so darn interesting too, wth its fascinating chess-like points scheme.

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#### Kozushi

##### Level 7 Valued Member

Even if you end up doing BJJ instead, all the judo moves are part of BJJ and vice versa. The book is still more than worthwhile to buy.

#### Bonkin

##### Level 3 Valued Member

Thanks for the input on BJJ. Not saying I won't look at in the future, but at the moment, I'm not really interested in paying 3-4 times the cost for BJJ versus Judo. The club president said something to the effect of "we train old people, young people, fat people, thin people, even blind people - judo can be for everyone". I'm taking that to mean we can figure out a way to make it work. Assuming no injuries, I'll be giving it a fair shake for at least 2-3 months before deciding how to proceed long term.

The Kudokan Judo book has just arrived (thanks Amazon Prime)! After I get some work done, I'll get to reading!

#### Kozushi

##### Level 7 Valued Member

I stuck with judo. When I "rolled" with BJJ guys my success rate was normally commensurate with our relative experience levels in each sport. In other words, I didn't think one art was "better" than the other in terms of overall skill or grappling ability. Judo is normally coached for fun and not for profit so this affects the dynamic - the price is much cheaper, which is a necessary factor for me. However price can also affect how much people value or devalue their activity; it can also scare away strong and fit guys who would otherwise like to train.

I guess my big point is that judo senseis have to distinguish between RECREATIONAL and self-defence judo versus competitive youthful judo. Getting thrown to the ground more than 20 times a session is in my opinion unnecessary and discouraging for guys a bit older. I'm an expert breakfaller and I do not like getting thrown - I can do it and do it well, but I don't like being thrown a lot. Drilling moves can be done without actually throwing the guy most of the time.

I'd love to read from you how well your S&S prepared you for your first day on the mats!!!

Last edited: Nov 1, 2016

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#### Bonkin

##### Level 3 Valued Member

There seems to be a good mix of recreational and competitive players at this club. My first class is tomorrow night - so if I'm not too sore I'll give you an update after class :D

#### Kozushi

##### Level 7 Valued Member

PLEASE let me/us know how it went!

Like I said, my theory is that you will strat judo already knowing judo, as judo moves are kettlebell moves.

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#### Bonkin

##### Level 3 Valued Member

I will do, Kozushi.

I did take some Judo for 2-3 months as a boy (so maybe 35-40 years ago), but after reading through Kodukan Judo last night, I see that I don't remember any of it. Thanks again for the book recommendation - some nice introduction and I can see that it will be a great reference for the movements - to help me remember when I leave class. I like what the book said about doing the Seiryoku Zenyo Kokumin Taiiku on off-days and will try to add those.

#### Kozushi

##### Level 7 Valued Member

There was always wrestling in the USA, so it's interesting how it took a Japanese way of looking at this stuff as a club for all ages rather than as a competitive sport to spread like wildfire over the USA and the world.

#### Kozushi

##### Level 7 Valued Member

The Seiryoku movements are striking movements (mainly) but are also nice drills in footwork for moving about the mats in randori (fighting).

#### Bonkin

##### Level 3 Valued Member

@Kozushi - I already posted my happenings from class in my training log - so rather than repost here, I'll just drop a link to the post: Bonkin goes to 11

Overall - a great experience!

Last edited: Nov 2, 2016

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#### berny

##### Level 1 Valued Member

I think us westernes turned Judo in what we would consider a sport for all ages. ;) Because in good old Nippon Judo has always been a bastion of hardcore nationalism and judo instructors were/are famous for beating, bullying, injuring and sometimes killing (by accident) young children that don't show enough fighting spirit.

#### Kozushi

##### Level 7 Valued Member

A lot of us also get the impression that they kept changing the rules to favour their own style and their own body types. Recently, leg grabs were banned, for instance. Judo in fact is based on both western wrestling and jiu-jitsu. It's an interesting take on both. It's sad how much things in Japan changed from the first generation of judo - it used to be for all ages and a lifelong activity but it turned into a children's competitive sport. Interestingly, jacket wrestling or something similar (like belt wrestling) has been popular almost everywhere in the world.

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