Sorry, this video has expired

Linking carbon schemes sends 'big signal'

Posted September 02, 2012 10:13:00

Greens leader Christine Milne joins Insiders to discuss the plan to link Australia's carbon price to Europe.

Source: Insiders | Duration: 14min 1sec

Topics: federal-government, greens, australia


BARRIE CASSIDY, PRESENTER: Now we'll go to the Greens. And they launched with a small news conference in North Sydney 20 years ago, now they have nine senators and they share the balance of power in the House.

Their relatively new leader, Christine Milne, joins us this morning from Launceston.

Good morning, welcome.


BARRIE CASSIDY: So 20 years on, it's true to say though isn't it, in terms of political power a minority government was the best thing that happened to the Greens?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Yes, I think power sharing is the best thing that happened to Australia actually, and it's been the same in Tasmania where I've been in balance of power before. Because when all the parties have got a chance to share the power and negotiate you can get long term, system wide change.

And we achieved that in Tasmania with gay law reform, gun law reform and the apology to the Stolen Generation. We doubled the size of the wilderness World Heritage area. And now in the Federal Parliament we've bought in the biggest environmental and economic reform for decades with addressing carbon pricing, and we've also just delivered a fantastic outcome for system wide change on Denticare. So it's a pretty good record. When the Greens get balance of power we use it for the benefit of the community for the long term.

BARRIE CASSIDY: Well you talked about carbon pricing but the floor price has been scrapped and you once said a floor price was critical to certainty. What changed your mind?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well, we're exchanging the short term, 2015 to 2018 for a medium to long term certainty on a price curve. Essentially, when we secured - the Government gave us 50 per cent of permits to be bought overseas, that's when we said well we need a floor price because we don't want the Australian price to be the price of the CER (Carbon-Emission Reduction) permits, the cheap, lowest priced permits on the international market, that's why we need a floor price.

Now, by reducing the number of permits that can be bought in that cheap market to 12.5 per cent, we've actually bought that down and we've now made the Australian price for the long-term effectively the European price. It will be the global price at that time. And so companies can now look forward and track that and get long term certainty.

BARRIE CASSIDY: You also said though once that getting rid of the floor price could potentially blow a hole in the budget; but that's no longer your view?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well, it's going to be interesting to see. And certainly, Barrie, it's a matter of what you think about whether the European price will recover or not. I believe that it will.

The European scheme goes into its third phase next year. Connie Hedegaard has said quite clearly they want the reforms in the European scheme by the end of this year. And that would be a delayed optioning process to drive up the price. There's a big movement in Europe to drive up the price because their whole recovery strategy is around renewable energy, energy efficiency and the like. They've got a lot of big projects in the pipeline that require a higher price.

So, if you take the view that the European price will recover then by 2015, 2016 you're going to have a price that's higher than the floor price.

BARRIE CASSIDY: Yeah and the Treasury forecast is in the high 20s and you apparently believe that to be the case, if not more. It might even be more than that and therefore there would be no budgetary implications?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well that's what we have to wait. And see and nobody can read the future as to what the European price will be in that period, but I certainly believe that it will have recovered, that it'll be higher than the floor price and it should be up in the high 20s as indeed Treasury modelling suggests. Some of that, of course, will go down to decisions that are made at the UNFCCC (United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change) in Qatar in further years as we move towards global agreements.

The best thing about what's been achieved here is linking the Australian scheme with the European scheme, with 500 million people. It's about saying we are moving towards global emissions trading, linking these two schemes. It's a big signal to work with the Chinese, with the Californians, with the South Koreans. We are actually really doing something in terms of getting that push towards global emissions trading, a market mechanism to reduce carbon.

BARRIE CASSIDY: Now on the dental scheme, and I think the Health Minister said that's $4 billion of new money that has to be found. Did you give the Government any advice as to where they can cut to pay for that?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well the Greens have been the only people in the Federal Parliament saying to the Prime Minister look, we have to raise the money because it's certainly for Denticare. I mean what a fantastic reform that has been, almost $5 billion going into dental care but we need to raise the money. And the Greens have said all along first of all we should close the loophole in the Mineral Royalties Rent Tax, and we are going to bring in a private members bill to do that. It's a pale imitation of what the super profits tax would have been, but nevertheless closing that loophole would give $10 billion, around about, out to 2020. We've also said ...

BARRIE CASSIDY: Is that the money, sorry, is that the money the Federal Government repays the miners when they pay royalties to the States?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Yes, that's correct. Basically we're saying that that should be at the level that it was on the 1st of July 2011 and no more, because the way that it was structured was really a green light to the States to basically increase their royalties knowing the Commonwealth would just pay it back to the companies. We can't afford for that money not to come into Commonwealth revenue.

At the same time we are spending billions, around $7.2 billion a year in fossil fuel subsidies. That is another place where we could be raising revenue. We told the G20 we would get rid of fossil fuel subsidies. We ought to be doing that because we need to fund not only Denticare but also national disability insurance. We've got the absolute commitment to funding the implementation of the Gonski Review. And of course we want to raise Newstart.

So there are a lot of good things that need to happen in Australia but we need the money for them. And the Greens are prepared to do that just as we showed when we blocked the tax cut to big business last year we said 'look, there is money to be had'. That was gratefully received by Treasury. We need the Government now to put its shoulder to the wheel to actually deliver the money and not do it through attacking the public service.

I'm really worried that both the Prime Minister and Tony Abbott seemed to think that the surplus is more important than the jobs of people who are serving the public throughout the community. That is just not the case.

BARRIE CASSIDY: That is fine, but you seem to be taking the view that the miners, that there's a bottomless pit of money there for governments with the miners?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well, the miners complain a lot but look at BHP's profit. Yes, it was down but still it was the second, I think the record high in Australian corporate history. So, a huge profit from some of those miners. And they should be paying. But also if you have an internally consistent policy on reducing greenhouse gas emissions and getting off fossil fuels, it makes no sense to be subsidising fossil fuels.

BARRIE CASSIDY: When you look though at the dental scheme, at disabilities and so on, it seems to be not so much a question of where's the money coming from but when will we see it?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well exactly and that's why we want to see them bought forward. And I am really concerned by the Prime Minister's announcement about the implementation of the Gonski Review. We need that now, not in 2020. Imagine if you've got a child starting school, that child will be in Grade Eight or thereabouts by the time the full benefit comes through to schools. Public schools need that money desperately and they need it now.

And the Prime Minister seems hung up on attaching this money to performance pay for teachers and also giving principals more power to hire and fire staff. That's not going to go down well. That is an American idea that has failed to work. We need to actually fund the public school system which educates most of our children around the country. We need to actually go in there and fund students right now for the levels of need that they have. And additional to that, of course, money for levels of disadvantage and other assistance.

BARRIE CASSIDY: Now, on asylum seekers, and it seems as if another 100 people or more have died just this week trying to get to Australia. This program goes out through the Australia Network to Indonesia and Malaysia. What's your message to asylum seekers who might have an opportunity to see this? Is your message directly to them: don't try it?

CHRISTINE MILNE: My message is that the Greens in the Parliament are doing everything we can to bring forward the humanitarian increase in Australia. The Prime Minister's said 20,000 places will be made available, and we are doing everything in our power to bring that forward so that people have got the promise of a safe pathway.

So, we are doing everything we can. And we're calling on the Prime Minister to actually get into those camps in Indonesia and let people know that the humanitarian intake is being increased, that there is a safe pathway and that it's coming soon. ...

BARRIE CASSIDY: Yeah sure, but ...

CHRISTINE MILNE: ... That is the best way to stop people getting on boats.

BARRIE CASSIDY: But you still have to deal with the reality and what the policy of the Government is at the moment. Why don't you say directly now to asylum seekers, don't do it, it's just too dangerous?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well of course I'd say don't do it, it's too dangerous. But they have said themselves they are desperate to come to Australia and they don't see any hope. And while the Government's putting out videos of deterrence, it is not out there saying to people 'don't get on the boats because we're about to increase the humanitarian intake. And what's more, we're putting millions into the system in Indonesia to support the UNHCR (United Nations Human Rights Commissioner) to assess you as quickly as possible.'

So of course I don't want people to get on the boats. Of course I want the codification of safety of lives at sea. But let's get into the camps and tell people not to get on the boats because the humanitarian increase is coming in and they will soon be able to get safe passage to Australia. That's what they need to hear, and that's what I'm calling on the Prime Minister to tell people in those camps.

BARRIE CASSIDY: And should they also hear what Jason Clare the Minister said to them this week, that they should be told a ticket to Australia they're being conned by these people smugglers. They're not getting a ticket to Australia, what they're being sold is a ticket to Nauru or Manus Island or a ticket to the bottom of the sea. Now that is true, isn't it?

CHRISTINE MILNE: I find that an appalling statement, actually, because we have signatories to a Refugee Convention. Refugees are not illegal, they have done nothing wrong, they are running away from regimes in which they're being persecuted. We ought to be taking those people who are shown to be refugees to, as many as we can, and demonstrate to other countries and ask them to take some additional refugees as well. ...

BARRIE CASSIDY: Sure, sure and ....

CHRISTINE MILNE: ...Deterrence doesn't work, Barrie.

BARRIE CASSIDY: That's what you want but the reality is that's not the reality. The reality is as Jason Clare puts it, that the asylum seekers are being conned by the people smugglers.

CHRISTINE MILNE: The asylum seekers are being conned by people smugglers in that they're being promised their boat has a chance of getting to Australia in many cases. And it's an appalling, appalling thing that the people smugglers are doing. But deterrence doesn't work, it has never worked. What we have to do is encourage people not to get on boats by promising them proper assessment and safe passage to Australia through appropriate assessment processes and an increased humanitarian intake. That's what we need to be telling them.

As one of the asylum seekers said this week, he is so desperate he will continue to get on boats because he's running away from a terrible regime in Afghanistan. And that is exactly the case. So deterrence is not going to stop them but what will is saying to people in the camps, stay there because we're going to offer you a safe passage with an increased humanitarian intake.

BARRIE CASSIDY: We just talked about the terrible administration in Afghanistan and that links in now as to whether we ought to leave all that behind. Bob Carr, the Foreign Minister, said this morning we cannot leave until we're in a position to leave behind a functioning state that will say no to terrorism. Now what's wrong with that as an aim and can it be achieved?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well it can't be achieved. And what Bob Carr would be suggesting by that is that we would be there for the next 100 years. The fact is 2014 is an arbitrary date, there is nothing special about 2014 in suggesting that by that time the Afghan Security Forces will be operational to the extent that the Taliban won't be operational, that there will be no insurgency. I mean just today you've got president Karzai criticising the Australian troops subsequent to the appalling loss of life we've suffered there this week and the great tragedy.

The fact is we need to bring our troops home as quickly and safely as that can be achieved. And that's why I want the Prime Minister to bring forward the debate on the war on Afghanistan. Because all this talk about seeing it through to the end or suggest we stay the course. Stay the course to what in 2014? Because I would suggest very little is going to change in Afghanistan between now and 2014, but Australia will suffer further loss of life. And I just I just can't countenance further loss of life to no end, because that is what we are currently facing in Afghanistan.

BARRIE CASSIDY: Senator Milne, thanks for your time this morning.

CHRISTINE MILNE: Thank you, Barrie.