20:01 <@dberkholz> anyone got a web link to the agenda thread? not a whole lot on it 20:01 * jokey ties amne to $chair 20:01 -!- nox-Hand [i=johnhand@unaffiliated/nox-hand] has joined #gentoo-council 20:01 -!- Netsplit anthony.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: cruxeternus, peper, koxta 20:01 < nox-Hand> Am I too late to talk? 20:01 < nox-Hand> And HAI by the way if I can talk 20:02 <@dberkholz> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/52772 20:02 -!- Netsplit over, joins: cruxeternus, koxta, peper 20:03 <@dberkholz> alright, roll call 20:03 <@dberkholz> who's here? 20:03 <@amne> amne: 20:03 * Flameeyes present 20:03 * jokey me 20:03 <@amne> uberlord is absent due to his resignation, which also makes it a point for the agenda 20:03 <@amne> ah, hi jokey :-) 20:04 <@dberkholz> amne: yes, that's on the linked thread 20:05 <@amne> dberkholz: yupp 20:06 <@amne> so where's the rest? 20:06 <@dberkholz> lu_zero, vapier, SpanKY, Betelgeuse: where are ya? 20:07 < nox-Hand> Late reply to the roll call, I am here, but not sure if that matters any.. 20:07 <@dberkholz> nox-Hand: just council members; feel free to chip in later on, when the discussion you're interested in is happening 20:07 <+jokey> nox-Hand: erm nop, council people now... 20:07 -!- NeddySeagoon [n=NeddySea@gentoo/developer/NeddySeagoon] has joined #gentoo-council 20:08 < nox-Hand> jokey: dberkholz I Figured as much, cheers, I'll start chirping at my allocated chirpy time :] 20:09 -!- uberpinguin [n=uberping@unaffiliated/uberpinguin] has joined #gentoo-council 20:09 <@amne> hm 20:10 * igli gags nox-Hand 20:10 <@amne> due to the change to daylight savings in europe the meeting is an hour earlier today 20:10 < NeddySeagoon> amne, everyone beaten by the hour change last week ? 20:10 <@amne> i guess that could explain why lu_zero and Betelgeuse aren't here (both europeans, aren't they?) 20:10 < fmccor> Even US has changed now. 20:10 <@Flameeyes> amne, yeah they are, but as fmccor, us already catched up 20:11 <@amne> ah 20:11 <@dberkholz> can someone help me find the council summary link where it says the next highest voted person will fill an empty spot 20:11 <+jokey> so should we delay another bit? ;) 20:11 <@Flameeyes> dberkholz, should be around february last year 20:11 <@amne> council.g.o doesn't work for me right now, anyone else got the same problem? 20:12 <@amne> http://c.g.o to be more accurate 20:12 <@Flameeyes> dberkholz, http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20070208-summary.txt 20:12 < NeddySeagoon> dberkholz, I don't think it was ever written down in the process but its established as custom and practice now 20:12 <+jokey> amne: WORKSFORME 20:12 <@Flameeyes> NeddySeagoon, that link above 20:12 -!- Netsplit anthony.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: musikc, mpagano__, genone, zxy_64 20:12 <@amne> jokey: strange, but as long it works for everyone else :-) 20:12 <@lu_zero> cough... 20:13 * lu_zero is alive 20:13 <@lu_zero> distracted but alive... 20:13 < NeddySeagoon> Flameeyes, thank you 20:13 -!- Netsplit over, joins: musikc, mpagano__, zxy_64, genone 20:13 <@Flameeyes> [I remembered it easily, it was just before I left :)] 20:13 <@amne> gentoofan23 just pointed out there still was some confusion: gentoofan23> amne, the time is 15:12 EST right now whereas the e-mail said 16:00 EST so maybe that explains it.. 20:14 <@dberkholz> well, that means we'll have 5 of 7 people 20:14 <@lu_zero> legal/solar time mismatch? 20:14 <@Flameeyes> [21:10] [Whois] Betelgeuse has been idle for 20 hours, 0 minutes, and 20 seconds. 20:14 <@Flameeyes> Betelgeuse seems not around 20:14 <@dberkholz> the other two should've paid closer attention 20:15 <@Flameeyes> mike will probably appear midway through the meeting as usual 20:15 <@dberkholz> we might as well move on, today will be primarily discussion 20:15 <@lu_zero> ok 20:15 <@amne> works for me 20:15 <@dberkholz> first item requires no voting 20:15 <@Flameeyes> fine 20:15 <@dberkholz> we're welcoming jokey to the council, filling the spot left vacant by uberlord 20:16 <@Flameeyes> and I lost my liason :) 20:16 <+jokey> poor Flameeyes ;) 20:16 <@lu_zero> eh... 20:16 <@dberkholz> so, welcome jokey! 20:16 <@dberkholz> how do we get the ops status fixed? 20:17 <+jokey> tomaw should be able to 20:17 < tomaw> Hi 20:17 <@Flameeyes> /tomaw access #gentoo-council add jokey 30 20:17 <@Flameeyes> :P 20:17 < tomaw> You people should really equip yourselves to do this on your own. 20:18 < tomaw> Let me check, as I probably shouldn't be doing it without a nod from the right people 20:18 <@lu_zero> hmm 20:18 <@amne> vapier is listed as channel contact, he should be able to do it 20:18 < tomaw> yeah, he can do it, but noone else (bar staff) can 20:18 <@dberkholz> tomaw: aren't we the right people? =P 20:19 <@lu_zero> what about having all of us marked as contact/with an higher level? 20:19 < tomaw> No, freenode requires that the group contact ask staff. group contacts are currently phreak, christel and whoever your recruitment lead is now 20:19 <@dberkholz> you can only add people to levels below your own 20:19 <@Flameeyes> lu_zero, beside owner and staff, anyone else can add up to (hislevel-1) 20:19 < fmccor> tomaw, Betelgeuse is. 20:19 <@amne> uhm 20:20 <@amne> dberkholz: If they accept and the current Council unanimously accepts the new person, they get the position with a 'reduced' term such that the yearly elections still elect a full group. 20:20 < tomaw> fmccor: that's the guy! 20:20 <@Flameeyes> fmccor, let's get someone who's around, don't we? :P 20:20 <@amne> dberkholz: doesn't that mean we actually need to vote on jokey? 20:20 < fmccor> tomaw, phreak might be. 20:21 < tomaw> I pinged him already :) 20:21 <@dberkholz> amne: it certainly reads that way. i wonder if we already effectively did so on the mailing list thread about it 20:21 <+jokey> just do again so we're set ;) 20:21 <@Flameeyes> if we were all around we could vote on it, but I doubt Betelgeuse is around now 20:22 <@lu_zero> we could just use the email... 20:22 <@amne> works for me 20:22 <@lu_zero> next item? 20:23 <@dberkholz> the daylight savings change mentioned 20:23 <@dberkholz> announcement email was wrong, so i say we don't give slacker marks this week 20:24 <@amne> yupp 20:24 <@lu_zero> fine 20:25 <@Flameeyes> oky doky 20:25 <@amne> vapier: plz fix your announcement mail kthx :-) 20:25 <@dberkholz> alright, next item 20:26 <@dberkholz> approving EAPI=1 for use in the main tree 20:26 <@dberkholz> i wish Betelgeuse were here for this because he had some points 20:27 <@lu_zero> dberkholz which portage version won't be able to handle it? 20:27 <@dberkholz> portage has supported the EAPI variable for more than a year, and stable portage ( now has EAPI=1 support. 20:27 <@lu_zero> and how old would it be? 20:27 <@lu_zero> fine to start using it then 20:28 <@dberkholz> documentation is in PMS, ebuild and emerge manpages, but it should be added to the devmanual and dev handbook 20:28 <@lu_zero> I see 20:28 <@Flameeyes> what were the finalised features in EAPI=1? 20:28 <@dberkholz> This release is the first to have support for EAPI-1 (#194876), which includes SLOT dependencies (#174405), IUSE defaults (#174410), and ECONF_SOURCE support for the default src_compile function (#179380). 20:29 <+jokey> slot deps and iuse defaults being the more important parts 20:29 <@Flameeyes> I'm fine for it just at slot deps 20:29 <@dberkholz> what EAPI=1 means is already finalized, we're just saying it's fine to start using it in gentoo-x86. 20:30 <@Flameeyes> yeah 20:30 <@dberkholz> i talked to zmedico yesterday and he thought it would be a good idea for the council to approve it 20:30 <@lu_zero> it's fine 20:30 <@amne> ++ 20:30 <+jokey> ack 20:31 <@Flameeyes> dberkholz, your vote? 20:31 <@dberkholz> yes from me 20:31 <@Flameeyes> so it's fine for five out of seven (two missing) 20:33 <@dberkholz> alright, last agenda item is discussion of the CoC enforcement proposal 20:33 <@dberkholz> i got it together too late for a vote 20:33 -!- phreak`` [n=phreak``@gentoo/developer/phreak] has joined #gentoo-council 20:33 <@lu_zero> dberkholz I read it and seems fine 20:34 <@lu_zero> probably I should take a bit of time to rethink it 20:34 <+jokey> the idea of it is good imho 20:34 <@amne> i also like it 20:35 <@Flameeyes> I join lu_zero 20:37 -!- mode/#gentoo-council [+o jokey] by ChanServ 20:37 <@lu_zero> oh =) 20:37 <@amne> duck and cover! 20:38 <@amne> so, which points from the proposal need specific discussion? 20:38 -!- phreak`` [n=phreak``@gentoo/developer/phreak] has left #gentoo-council ["................. do I need to say anything else ?"] 20:39 -!- Netsplit anthony.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: musikc, mpagano__, genone, zxy_64 20:39 <@dberkholz> amne: you're probably in the best position to talk about whether my understanding of the situation was correct 20:39 <@jokey> I think one valid point was the timezone problem 20:39 -!- Netsplit over, joins: musikc, mpagano__, zxy_64, genone 20:39 <@dberkholz> yeah, but there are distinct times of day that are much more active than others 20:40 <@amne> yeah, i think that's the main point, i'll take a quick look at the mails agani 20:40 <@dberkholz> i don't think we need to try for 100% coverage of people watching everywhere every second 20:40 <@amne> i also like the idea of having a test run as suggested - during that time we can also evaluate how the coverage works 20:40 <@dberkholz> we just need to show that we will enforce it if it's violated 20:40 <@lu_zero> there were violations lately? 20:41 < fmccor> lu_zero, off and on --- some things devrel sees now are really CoC issues in my opinion. 20:42 <@amne> fmccor: agreed 20:42 < fmccor> lu_zero, but rather low volume to us. 20:42 <@dberkholz> i'm not sure how closely y'all read it for devrel/userrel connections, i did add a line about that 20:42 <@lu_zero> fmccor so there isn't a dire need for them 20:43 <@lu_zero> _so_ nobody would start talking about us putting them up in hurry because of crisis 20:43 <@amne> lu_zero: still things may explode again some day, so we shouldn't wait until then 20:43 <@jokey> lu_zero: just that history has proven we could use it from time to time 20:43 <@Flameeyes> agreed with amne 20:43 <@dberkholz> my earnest hope is that we can create a group of people who spend 99% of the time taking no actions 20:43 * jokey resyncs brainlink with amne 20:44 <@amne> jokey: get out of my head! :-P 20:44 <@amne> dberkholz: yes 20:44 <@lu_zero> amne the main point is the second 20:44 <@Flameeyes> dberkholz, and 1% doing drills organised by us councilers? 20:44 <@dberkholz> heh. they could look over old irc logs. =P 20:44 < fmccor> lu_zero, remember, devrel typically does not watch for these very quick things unless we happen to see them in passing. 20:44 <@lu_zero> since there isn't need we can approve/appoint them 20:45 <@lu_zero> s/need/immediate need/ 20:46 < NeddySeagoon> My hope is that the council will back the body while they work - and hold a 'lessons learned' after every incident 20:47 <@amne> good idea 20:47 <@jokey> I don't see a reason to not back stuff up atm, but we'll how stuff goes 20:48 <@amne> otherwise the people execute CoC don't know what the council wants in the first place 20:48 < jmbsvicetto> dberkholz: An important point about userrel, Is that userrel hasn't been doing the "user control" role for a long time 20:48 <@lu_zero> why not? 20:48 < jmbsvicetto> dberkholz: userrel can definitely have that role, but it's something that has been lost for some time 20:48 <@dberkholz> that makes me think of a couple of points. first, the council won't back up decisions it disagrees with. second, the council needs to be careful not to overreact 20:48 <@Betelgeuse> hmm it's winter time 20:48 <@Betelgeuse> damn it 20:48 <@lu_zero> hi Betelgeuse 20:48 <@Betelgeuse> stupid UTC 20:49 <@amne> Betelgeuse: welcome 20:49 <@jokey> heya Betelgeuse 20:49 <@dberkholz> Betelgeuse: http://dev.gentoo.org/~dberkholz/summary-20071108.txt 20:49 <@dberkholz> summary so far 20:49 -!- Netsplit anthony.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: musikc, mpagano__, genone, zxy_64 20:49 <@amne> dberkholz: agreed, but they still should back up the team doing the work, even if they disagree with a single decision 20:50 <@dberkholz> and on the other side of that, the team needs to handle its actions appropriately 20:50 -!- Netsplit over, joins: musikc, mpagano__, zxy_64, genone 20:50 <@dberkholz> doing the right thing in the wrong way will ruin it 20:50 * amne nods 20:50 < NeddySeagoon> dberkholz, My point is that the council supports any action in progress until its concluded, so we don't have incidents like the one that killed proctors 20:50 < igli> amne's point is critical though, imo 20:50 <@Betelgeuse> dberkholz: Did you want my input on something? 20:50 <@dberkholz> Betelgeuse: nah, was just mentioning some points you brought up about EAPI=1 20:51 <@amne> i guess a --dry-run phase would help a lot with these issues 20:51 < jmbsvicetto> lu_zero: I think that role hasn't been carried by userrel because the current members have focused more on other projects 20:51 < NeddySeagoon> dberkholz, The council 'interfering' in a work in progress will undermine the team 20:51 <@Betelgeuse> dberkholz: Well it's documented in the current PMS version so that's good. 20:52 <@dberkholz> NeddySeagoon: i think that will be difficult if not impossible with the change to only private actions 20:52 -!- Tabasco [i=rhcp@gateway/tor/x-91a87846c415d662] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53 <@dberkholz> all the team would do release is anonymous statistics; X people modded for 6 hours; Y for 12 hours; etc 20:53 <@dberkholz> s/ do// 20:53 < NeddySeagoon> dberkholz, Thats a change I welcome - much procting was done in private anyway 20:55 <@dberkholz> Betelgeuse: while you're here; do you support just adding jokey to council? we need unanimous 20:55 <@Betelgeuse> dberkholz: sure if he is the next one on the list 20:55 <@Betelgeuse> I thought that was already decided by the last counci 20:56 <@amne> i think we should also discuss which tools are available for moderation or even needed to implement 20:56 <@dberkholz> Betelgeuse: the last council said that the next person would be offered the spot, contingent upon unanimous council approval 20:56 <@dberkholz> amne: yes that's very true, i thought about that and didn't add anything to the proposal 20:57 <@Betelgeuse> dberkholz: okay 20:58 <@amne> last proctors had some mailing list interface (which was done by robbat2 iirc) to block emails from people, was there anything else? 20:59 <@jokey> I'm with the mail that stated we don't need another set of moderation for irc and forums where it is in place already 20:59 <@jokey> so we don't need more than this interface imho 20:59 <@amne> other stuff (that's not implemented, but i think was planned) would have been delaying messages until someone approves they are flame free 21:00 <@amne> well, that feature could be potentially useful - otoh if mailing list bans are short term it may not be worth the effort to implement 21:00 <@jokey> ack 21:00 -!- gentoofan23 [n=gentoofa@gentoo/contributor/gentoofan23] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01 <@lu_zero> ++ 21:02 <@Flameeyes> [I'm not saying anything because I'm fine for what you're saying :)] 21:02 * Philantrop wonders what jokey and lu_zero ack'ed - "potentially useful" or "not worth the effort". 21:02 <@amne> also the bans would need to be unset manually after the time of ban/silencing/foo is over 21:02 <@dberkholz> jokey: yep, mailing lists and #gentoo-dev are the main things 21:02 <@amne> this means people should also be there to unban people in a timely manner 21:02 <@dberkholz> might be able to script that sorta thing 21:03 <@amne> dberkholz: atm the mailing list has a web-interface for that 21:03 <@amne> but that's all technicalities that i think can be solved. i think it would be best to ask robbat2 about these things, too 21:03 <@jokey> if needed, scripting it shouldn't be too hard iirc 21:03 < jmbsvicetto> dberkholz: I think that would require some sort of cron for that 21:04 <@amne> perhaps he can easily implement a self-destruct timer for bans 21:04 < igli> at would be better 21:04 <@amne> ban amne@gentoo.org for 12 hours -> done 21:04 <@dberkholz> that's really just a detail that can be figured out after we decide whether to do this at all 21:04 <@amne> nod 21:04 <@dberkholz> let whoever's doing the work deal with it 21:04 <@jokey> yup 21:05 < NeddySeagoon> amne, it directs mail to /dev/null just now 21:05 <@amne> NeddySeagoon: ack 21:05 <@amne> is anyone aware of any other big issues that we haven't discussed yet? 21:06 <@dberkholz> regarding CoC, or in general? 21:06 <@amne> CoC 21:08 * jokey assigns silence to None ;) 21:08 <@dberkholz> i wrote down all my ideas, so i'm waiting for others to respond. =) 21:08 < fmccor> Is bugzilla covered by it? 21:09 <@dberkholz> anywhere without existing moderation should be, so i'd say so 21:09 <@dberkholz> which i would interpret as "anything gentoo except for #gentoo and forums" 21:09 * fmccor had guessed that, but did not recall. 21:09 <@amne> dberkholz: i like the proposal (including the things that have been discussed now) 21:09 < igli> i don't think having one strong leader is a good idea. better a strong collective imo. 21:09 * fmccor wanted to hear "yes" :) 21:10 <@amne> i think it would be good to continue in that direction and finalize it 21:10 < NeddySeagoon> dberkholz I was expecting your paper to be discussed on -project rather than -council. As an ex proctor, I intend to provide the benefit of my experiance. I've just been reading the thread 21:11 <@amne> discussing it further on -project sounds like a good idea to me 21:11 <@lu_zero> we could try -project if the noise ratio increase we'll fallback on -council 21:11 <@lu_zero> deadlines for it? 21:11 < NeddySeagoon> amne, That was what the last council meetting decided 21:11 < igli> project is pretty quiet ;-) 21:12 <@dberkholz> project list had an opportunity to express its interests, which it did 21:12 <@dberkholz> from those interests i created a concrete proposal 21:12 <@dberkholz> i don't think that concrete details are well-designed by committees 21:13 <@dberkholz> i do think basic interests are, though 21:13 < NeddySeagoon> dberkholz, agreed 21:13 <@dberkholz> so if any of the basic interests are incorrect or need refinement, i'd be happy to hear about that wherever 21:13 < jmbsvicetto> dberkholz: One word of caution, your comment of everything gentoo except #gentoo and forums caused a lot of grievance for proctors 21:13 <@dberkholz> jmbsvicetto: could you expand on that? 21:14 < jmbsvicetto> dberkholz: Most #gentoo-* irc channels feel they already have a moderation team and are not to keen on having outside interference 21:14 <@dberkholz> if they want to be an official channel, they have to deal with the CoC 21:14 < jmbsvicetto> dberkholz: Also, no one has ever been able to come up with a consensous list of official #gentoo-* channels 21:15 <@dberkholz> whatever's on the IRC channels page 21:15 <@amne> jmbsvicetto: all #gentoo-* is official 21:15 <@Flameeyes> ##gentoo-* should be the unofficial ones 21:15 <@jokey> amne: I don't think so, some are driven by users 21:15 <@amne> jmbsvicetto: if you want it to be non-official, it's ##gentoo-* 21:15 <@dberkholz> but certainly this team would need to work with the existing moderation, it doesn't need to take direct action to preempt them 21:15 <@Flameeyes> [like we have ##gentoo-anime] 21:15 < jmbsvicetto> dberkholz: I agree, but for instace, #gentoo-userrel, #gentoo-devrel, #gentoo-sparc or #gentoo-pt, just random examples, are not likely to welcome that interpretation 21:16 <@lu_zero> Flameeyes we should have #gentoo-anime 21:16 <@dberkholz> are they part of gentoo? if so, the CoC affects them. 21:16 <@Flameeyes> lu_zero, let's keep it unofficial ;) 21:16 <@dberkholz> we just need to figure out the best way to deal with that 21:16 <@Flameeyes> dberkholz, regional channels are a problem though, that I agree with 21:16 <@Flameeyes> [it so happens I'm one of the #gentoo-it moderators btw] 21:17 <@dberkholz> that's why the team would liaise with existing moderation 21:17 <@amne> yes 21:17 < jmbsvicetto> amne: ok, though question then, is #gentoo-xeffects an official gentoo channel? Also, has freenode changed their policy? Last time we had this discussion the gentoo contacts left it very clear that is was impossible to refuse anyone from registering #gentoo-my-channel 21:18 <@jokey> tomaw: have some up-to-date details there ^^ 21:18 <@lu_zero> jmbsvicetto if they have the gut to register it as different project 21:18 <@amne> jmbsvicetto: yes; not that i am aware of; i've seen channels being removed because they were not official and used # instead of ## 21:18 <@lu_zero> and we aren't knocking them with a trademark hammer 21:18 <@lu_zero> sure 21:19 <@amne> lu_zero: yeah, it were some special cases where people used the official #gentoo-* to be abusive 21:19 <@amne> lu_zero: don't remember the exact details any more 21:19 <@amne> i don't think anyone who does some good work will get slapped by us for not being official enough or whatsoever 21:19 < jmbsvicetto> So I'm not misunderstood, I do agree that #gentoo channels should be official channels, but that is not the case currently and freenode doesn't seem to be willing to support that claim 21:20 <@amne> jmbsvicetto: how come? 21:20 < jmbsvicetto> amne: well, if they will allow anyone to register any # channel, how can you enforce that #gentoo-* channels are official gentoo channels? 21:21 <@jokey> from what I know, at least within europe you can't enforce trademark over channel names, I think there was something with #debian.de in the past... 21:21 <@amne> jmbsvicetto: freenode staff can get it back 21:21 < jmbsvicetto> amne: But I think that working with existing teams and working with people that are doing "good work" is the best way 21:21 <@amne> jmbsvicetto: yes 21:22 <@lu_zero> agreed 21:22 < jmbsvicetto> However, I urge you to have a "crystal clear" definition of where you want/expect that team to work 21:22 <@amne> jmbsvicetto: i think the only problem would be someone managing an official (#gentoo-*) channel and refusing to accept CoC at all by allowing attacks and other nasty stuff 21:23 < NeddySeagoon> amne, like in -dev ? 21:23 < jmbsvicetto> amne: You were on the proctors team, so you know the answer to that ;) 21:23 <@amne> NeddySeagoon: #gentoo-dev? 21:23 <@amne> jmbsvicetto: heh 21:23 < NeddySeagoon> amne, yes. With everone an op, its impossible to enforce 21:24 < tomaw> jmbsvicetto: it's difficult to refuse them being registered, but a contact could reclaim it if they felt they should 21:24 < tomaw> jmbsvicetto: that's freenode policy - I have no idea of gentoo policy 21:24 <@amne> NeddySeagoon: #gentoo-dev has no clearly defined people in charge, does it? (so it's up to the new team to manage it imho) 21:25 <@lu_zero> everybody should be in charge 21:25 < NeddySeagoon> lu_zero, everbody == nobody 21:25 <@dberkholz> in general it's sort of devrel, since they're the ones who add/remove ops 21:26 < jmbsvicetto> tomaw: At least that's what I gathered from my talks with some gentoo contacts while I worked on the proctors 21:26 < NeddySeagoon> Its a detail to think about 21:26 <@jokey> indeed 21:26 < jmbsvicetto> amne: I agree, but you should expect resistance to a "controlled" #gentoo-dev 21:27 <@amne> i think #-dev should fall under the same treatment as the mailing list 21:27 < tomaw> jmbsvicetto: yes, the gentoo project registered with freenode and claimed #gentoo-* channels. Currently, it's possible for anyone to register a channel in that namespace, but it can still be turned over the to gentoo project on request. 21:27 < kingtaco|laptop> not really, tell them to go somewhere else 21:27 < kingtaco|laptop> freedom of speech(if we even have it) is the freedom to say what you want, not where you want 21:27 < jmbsvicetto> tomaw: Thanks for clearing that 21:27 <@amne> jmbsvicetto: i told you :-P 21:28 < jmbsvicetto> amne: :) 21:28 < tomaw> jmbsvicetto: note that a single project cannot own #gentoo-* and ##gentoo-*, so gentoo has no control over ##gentoo-* channels 21:30 <@jokey> despite talking on details, are there big points we missed? 21:31 <@amne> seems everyone's happy (or fallen asleep) 21:31 <@amne> perhaps it hasn't been said explicitely, but from my understanding, if someone gets into trouble frequently, issues will be escalated to devrel, right? 21:32 <@lu_zero> I think it's sane 21:32 <@jokey> amne: devrel or userrel 21:32 <@amne> jokey: right 21:33 <@dberkholz> my presumption is that successive actions against the same person will eventually extend to the 3-day cutoff that means they need council approval and forwarding to devrel 21:33 <@amne> dberkholz: ack 21:33 <@dberkholz> but i didn't really allow for someone getting a million 6-12 hour blocks 21:33 <@amne> heh 21:33 <@dberkholz> maybe i should expressly disallow that, as it's the same "warnings go on forever" problem that means nothing ever gets fixed 21:34 <@amne> hm 21:35 <@amne> personally i'd prefer loose guidelines and individual treatment depending on the situation 21:35 <@amne> but if someone is warned and repeats his behaviour, action should follow 21:36 <@lu_zero> ok 21:36 <@dberkholz> http://dev.gentoo.org/~dberkholz/summary-20071108.txt has my summary of the discussion so far 21:36 <@dberkholz> we should wrap it up soon and send back to the -council list 21:38 <@lu_zero> do we have anything to discuss about baselayout2 and uberlord? 21:39 <@amne> dberkholz: summary looks good to me 21:39 <@Betelgeuse> lu_zero: Not much if Uberlord contains to maintain it externally 21:39 <@Betelgeuse> lu_zero: Otherwise we do need to find someone who works on it. 21:39 <@lu_zero> Betelgeuse BSD license switch included? 21:39 <@dberkholz> it wasn't a switch, it was an addition 21:39 <@dberkholz> so dual GPL/BSD 21:40 <@dberkholz> both of which are FSF free, fwiw, so fits our social contract fine 21:40 <@lu_zero> held on git on our infrastructure? 21:40 <@dberkholz> not sure about the infrastructure bit. anyone know? 21:41 <@Flameeyes> I think the idea was to use our git 21:41 <@Betelgeuse> I think infra does not allow commit access to non devs but I could be wrong. 21:41 <@dberkholz> i'm also unsure how much it matters; i suspect other distros use init systems they don't personally keep on their infra 21:42 <@jokey> imho it doesn't matter where it resides as long as someone packages it for gentoo ;) 21:42 <@Betelgeuse> dberkholz: yeah like upstart 21:42 <@Flameeyes> dberkholz, yeah doesn't really matter, it just means we have to split baselayout (base files) from the rc system 21:42 <@Flameeyes> and that was probably a good idea to begin with 21:42 <@lu_zero> as long it doesn't break for us... 21:43 <@dberkholz> Flameeyes: i'm sure upstream would be glad to include distro files for any distros that wish to use it. =) 21:43 <@Flameeyes> dberkholz, I think Roy's idea was splitting them, anyway I'll certainly follow up with him about it as I do have interest in it 21:43 <@dberkholz> sure, i don't know the details 21:43 <@lu_zero> ok 21:44 <@dberkholz> anyway it seems that baselayout-2 remains in good hands and maintained 21:45 <@dberkholz> anyone got another open floor topic? 21:46 <@jokey> nox-Hand: you wanted? 21:46 < kingtaco|laptop> what about infra? 21:46 <@dberkholz> kingtaco|laptop: is there something in particular about infra you'd like to bring up? 21:47 < kingtaco|laptop> nope, just cought my eye 21:47 < kingtaco|laptop> you guys were talking about infra 21:47 <@dberkholz> kingtaco|laptop: oh, we're just not exactly sure where baselayout-2 repository will end up 21:47 <@amne> kingtaco|laptop: we decided infra needs to provide the ice cream machine i promised in the election :-) 21:47 < kingtaco|laptop> amne, sure, just send me the money 21:47 <@amne> heh 21:47 <@lu_zero> kingtaco|laptop we were thinking about overhauling one of the boxes 21:47 < kingtaco|laptop> dberkholz, yeah, thats a problem. 21:48 < jmbsvicetto> amne: Please put it next to bender. kthxbye :P 21:48 < kingtaco|laptop> lu_zero, ? 21:48 <@dberkholz> kingtaco|laptop: i see it as an open question, certainly 21:48 <@lu_zero> kingtaco|laptop for the icecreams 21:48 <@dberkholz> it's fine on any site that hosts git, as far as i'm concerned 21:48 < kingtaco|laptop> lu_zero, no recycled icecream please 21:49 <@lu_zero> dberkholz so far repo.or.cz 21:49 < kingtaco|laptop> dberkholz, tbh, I don't know if that's good 21:49 <@dberkholz> kingtaco|laptop: why? 21:50 < kingtaco|laptop> well, put something as critical as baselayout on anything other than our hardware and it's hard to trust. that said the guy who write the stuff is no longer a dev so it's hard to trust him as well 21:50 <@lu_zero> kingtaco|laptop solutions? 21:50 <@jokey> it's open source so you take a look at the diffs 21:50 <@dberkholz> kingtaco|laptop: how about all the other code on your system? 21:50 < kingtaco|laptop> whoever is importing it into gentoo is going to have to keep a close eye on whats going on 21:50 <@lu_zero> beside abducting roy 21:50 < kingtaco|laptop> lu_zero, sadly, no 21:50 < kingtaco|laptop> dberkholz, well, baselayout is critical 21:50 < kingtaco|laptop> other stuff is not 21:51 <@dberkholz> baselayout is just as critical as glibc, gcc, coreutils 21:51 <@jokey> ack 21:51 < jmbsvicetto> I agree with kingtaco|laptop in particular if we take into account the decision regarding the PMS 21:51 <@lu_zero> still we can keep a local git 21:51 <@lu_zero> and pull from roy from time to time 21:51 <@dberkholz> and yes, it's git so we can do whatever we want 21:51 <@dberkholz> we can maintain our own patchset on top, we can track his branch, we can fork off, whatever 21:52 < kingtaco|laptop> I'm not saying not do it, I'm saying whichever gentoo dev is the one who is importing it is going to have to audit each and every import. there is just too much chance for an exploit. projects like coreutils/gcc/glibc have built up a reputation which is why they are different 21:52 <@jokey> and not trusting him because he just is no longer a dev tastes very very bad imho 21:52 <@dberkholz> that's disgusting 21:52 <@Betelgeuse> I would trust Uberlord lot more than new devs. 21:53 <@dberkholz> roy's built a reputation too, and quitting gentoo does not affect my view of it in any way 21:53 < kingtaco|laptop> would you trust whatever random host he hosts the repo on? 21:53 < kingtaco|laptop> I know I wouldn't 21:53 <@dberkholz> i trust sha512 21:53 <@jokey> if he uses git ans signs it, then yes 21:53 <@jokey> *and 21:53 < kingtaco|laptop> SCM doesn't matter here 21:53 < kingtaco|laptop> signs it perhaps 21:54 < kingtaco|laptop> however, you're still trusting uberlord to audit his own code before he releases 21:54 <@dberkholz> how's that different? =) 21:54 <@amne> (i have to slack off and take care of some stuff, hope no one minds) 21:54 < kingtaco|laptop> it's where you put the trust 21:55 < igli> isn't that what the testing releases are for? 21:55 -!- desultory [n=dean@gentoo/developer/desultory] has joined #gentoo-council 21:56 < kingtaco|laptop> when it was on gentoo hardware developed by a gentoo dev there was a lot of trust. now it's on random hardware by a (trusted) ex dev 21:56 <@jokey> kingtaco|laptop: re trust... we had exploitable code for year(s) on packages. and we controlled the repo and had a gentoo dev maintaining it. so I really don't see a point 21:56 < kingtaco|laptop> I think you need to consider how it can be attacked before you decide on trivialities like git 21:56 <@dberkholz> git supports gpg-signed tags and the whole thing is based on sha1 sums 21:57 < kingtaco|laptop> jokey, packages is not an attack vector for each and every single gentoo install 21:57 < kingtaco|laptop> baselayout is 21:58 < kingtaco|laptop> dberkholz, I don't know enough about git to comment on it's trustworthness 21:59 -!- leio_ is now known as leio 21:59 < igli> hang on; uber signs it so it's verifiably his code. base-system bring it in and sign off on review, then it goes thru testing. where's the vector? 21:59 <@dberkholz> the suggestion is that nobody will audit the code, either roy or ebuild maintainers 21:59 <@dberkholz> and the git host will somehow be the vector 21:59 <@dberkholz> i'm just asking in #git about that 22:01 < kingtaco|laptop> when it was on gentoo hardware, you could trust the repo as much as you trusted a combination of gentoos security, arch, and infra teams. when it's somewhere random, you can't trust that git doesn't have a bug or that the host of the git repo isn't doing something malicious 22:01 <@dberkholz> i don't think malicious hosts are possible with how git is implemented 22:02 <@dberkholz> but i'm asking for clarification 22:02 -!- uberpinguin [n=uberping@unaffiliated/uberpinguin] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:02 < Philantrop> kingtaco|laptop: Would infra allow non-devs to commit to the repository if it was on Gentoo hardware? 22:02 < bonsaikitten> apart from bugs in git itself the signing should be as tamper-resistant as any other system 22:02 < igli> sorry i don't see it; only vector is a bug in gpg, which i agree has happened before 22:02 < kingtaco|laptop> dberkholz, this is a package that's so important that infra would entertain allowing a baselayout repo for uberloard to use 22:02 -!- fmccor_ is now known as fmccor|home 22:03 -!- Ingmar^ [n=ingmar@] has joined #gentoo-council 22:03 < kingtaco|laptop> Philantrop, normally no, this is an extrodonary case where I would bring it up with the other infra folks 22:03 -!- Ingmar [n=ingmar@] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:04 <@jokey> anyway there are no full rewrites near so a diff shouldn't be hard to look into (at least when looking at last updates) 22:05 < Philantrop> kingtaco|laptop: Well, if I had anything to say about it, I'd prefer the Gentoo hardware under that circumstances even though I don't think there are any attack vectors but gpg itself. 22:05 < igli> would be better 22:05 < kingtaco|laptop> Philantrop, on the surface, I would prefer that too, but infra has to have a pow-wow to look deeper 22:06 < kingtaco|laptop> dberkholz, jokey can you table this until next month so I have time to talk to infra peeps? 22:06 <@dberkholz> repo.or.cz is a git hosting site from the git developers, so i guess if you trust git, you can trust the site 22:06 <@dberkholz> kingtaco|laptop: we're not making any decisions so we have nothing to table 22:06 < kingtaco|laptop> if we can't do it, then I'll shut up 22:06 < eroyf> kingtaco|laptop: infra is willing to let uberlord work on baselayout even though he's not a developer? 22:06 < kingtaco|laptop> eroyf, not exactly 22:06 < eroyf> then what exactly 22:07 < kingtaco|laptop> what I proposed is that infra might create a seperate repo for him to use for the sole purpose of his baselayout development 22:07 < eroyf> so he's going to stay as a developer or what? 22:08 < kingtaco|laptop> afaik, he quit 22:08 < kingtaco|laptop> if he's intending on coming back, I don't know about it 22:08 <@dberkholz> basically the proposal is that we'd become a very limited project-hosting site for non-gentoo devs working on critical gentoo packages 22:08 < eroyf> or do you create a repo for him to work on and then let someone with an @gentoo.org commit it to the *right* repo? 22:08 < eroyf> with svn support? 22:09 < kingtaco|laptop> I don't care about the scm 22:09 < igli> which other packages are so critical, and not dev'ed by gentoo? 22:09 < kingtaco|laptop> if I had my way everyone would still use RCS :p 22:09 < eroyf> PMS for example. 22:09 < eroyf> which is not a package. 22:09 < eroyf> but infra simply refused to let non-developers get access to that repo 22:09 < eroyf> so this is somehow interesting. 22:09 < igli> if moot 22:10 < kingtaco|laptop> extremely moot 22:10 < eroyf> well, i'm looking forward to see what you decide 22:10 < kingtaco|laptop> ok... 22:10 <@dberkholz> since we're not going to make any progress at this meeting, let's just adjourn the meeting 22:11 <@dberkholz> feel free to keep talking about it afterwards 22:11 -!- igli [n=igli@unaffiliated/igli] has left #gentoo-council ["Have a good one ;-)"] 22:11 < kingtaco|laptop> I don't have much more to say, I need to talk to my team about it and work out the details. I'll send you guys an email when infra agrees on something 22:16 < fmccor|home> A final thanks to dberkholz for his CoC proposal, which I view as great progress. 22:17 <@dberkholz> thanks fmccor|home, i'm glad it went over fairly well 22:17 -!- windzor [n=windzor@] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18 < fmccor|home> In my opinion, better than "fairly well". :)