The Yoenis Cespedas video. What an athlete!

You guys heard about this superstar Cuban outfielder guy, right?
Yoenis Cespedas?
And I'm sure you read that the Cubs are Yoenis Cespedas' leading suitor.
Anyway, the other day I was driving around listening to The Score, and heard about this legendary Cespedas video.
Dan Bernstein was saying that it apparently showed what an amazing, freak athlete this Cespedas guy is - that he reminded people of Bo Jackson.
But also that mysteriously, You Tube had taken it down.
Well, I went to You Tube and...they musta decided to put it back up because you can find it there!
Only, it's over 20 minutes long so I thought I'd give you just the highlights in the above shortened version.

On another note, there's a storm bigger than Iowa about to hit Chicago.
If I didn't have to be at work, I wouldn't even be down here.


How disappointing. I wanted to see the oatmeal video of Cespedes on a jet ski with Oprah and Jesus in Outer Space

...or at least the Koala and Goat making whoopee just before Cespedes barbecues them

Sorry. Can't compete with the oatmeal.
That was brilliant.

the bolt pic was awesome. *golf clap*

Tim Brown, Yahoo sports...

Tampa Bay Rays are in pretty deep on Carlos Pena. Would be a great fit, of course.

Thank God the tweeting on the Brewers signing Cesar Izturis didn't use the same phrasing.

Isn't that the same guy they couldn't afford to sign coming off a .196 season?

Presumably there isn't another team to pay him 10 million without another suitor on the horizon this year.

1/7.25m for Pena. Bet he's pissed at Boras.

Playing him down the stretch and not trading him ends up paying off for the Cubs.

Can we assume that this means Hendry over paid last off season?

Heyman saying he's taking less than what Indians offered to return to Tampa. Plus he's a year older.

Hendry overpays for everything so that's nothing new

Mark DeRosa, Marlon Byrd, Ted Lilly, Aramis Ramirez disagree

Because they outperform their contracts doesn't mean he wasn't well above market at that time.

Aramis Ramirez taking that deal to come back in 2007 was the only real "bargain" I can ever recall Hendry inking.

And that deal had one way player options and NTC's all through it.

Soriano and Bradley are the only real overpays by that criteria.

Fukudome was slightly overpaid. Slightly.

at the end of the day, absolutely

word was he had better offers but Cubs promised him starting RF instead of CF.

oh did i forget to include the hyperbole smiley?

Well..who was available at 1B last offseason?

Duh, Adam Dunn.

Hehehehe...thanks Rob.

Technically, didn't he get paid $5 million in 2011 and will get paid $12.25 million in 2012? So maybe he's pissed, but...

seems pleased to be back with Tampa, so I'm sure I'm overstating it a bit.

Nonetheless, my brain is telling me that Boras dicked him over a bit on arbitration to keep Cubs in the Fielder sweepstakes along with Cubs playing Boras saying they were interested in Fielder but wouldn't be if they had to pay Pena in arbitration.

it was the scenario I spelled out when some folks on here were saying don't offer Pena arbitration because he might take it.

worked out for the Cubs though in terms of a compensatory pick...

Who is that cooking on the spit. The GM of whoever signs this guy?

Top 10 C prospects, no Welington

Do we know what draft choice the Cubs get for Pena? #54?

What would Pena have brought with Randy Bush being in charge at that point?

I think the Bluejays get the 53rd pick for Jose Molina (according to Wiki) who on Elias ranking was just ahead of Pena in the type B agents.

Jose Molina, Blue Jays - 59.586
Carlos Pena, Cubs - 59.200

few more FA's still have to sign before it's all official.

No idea who these guys are, but rank Cubs #22 and #23 in farm system talent. BA previously said they'd have them around #14. Law and Goldstein seemed to suggest they'd be more in the 20's on their lists.

here's there Cubs take before the Rizzo trade

Prince Fielder
Yoenis Cespedes
Roy Oswalt
Edwin Jackson
Francisco Cordero
Casey Kotchman
Wilson Betemit
Johny Damon
Jeff Francis
Rich Harden
Brad Lidge
Cody Ross
Hideki Matsui
Carlos Guillen
Derrek Lee
Raul Ibanez
Magglio Ordonez
Manny Ramirez

wouldn't mind a run at Oswalt still, especially if they deal Garza for future prospects.

I doubt Cubs can afford Oswalt*, but if they can somehow snag him on a 1-year, then hopefully he stays healthy and they flip him at the deadline. But I would imagine Oswalt has enough interest from other teams to sign with someone planning to compete who will keep him around all year(s).

*Assuming $35.2M balloon payment due to Alfonso Soriano on 10/4/12.

Cubs can afford anyone out there right now, just a matter of if they want to. You hate to say they have enough pitching but right now you've got Garza, Dempster, Volstad, Maholm, Wells, Wood, Sonnastine, Samardzija, Coleman, Lopez, Jay Jackson, Nick Struck, Rusin, McNutt and you'd have to promise Oswalt a spot obviously.

Now most likely he'd prefer a contender, so chances are slim of course. But if they move Garza for long term prospects and sign Oswalt on a 1-year deal for $8-$10M, I don't think there's a big drop off in performance and you've set yourself up better for the future.

why the balloon payment?

$36M to cut him, minus two years' worth of league-min when someone signs him. I think that's where the dollars are in 2012.

I don't think it's all due at once though, unless they negotiate some sort of buyout.

for those thinking Tigers should get in on Soriano

besides a few names just listed above, other teams desperate to unload include Jason Bay and Carlos Lee.

it doesn't look like anyone is biting on Edwin Jackson for a multiyear deal...another one that Boras may have overplayed his hand based on what Cincy, Yankees did to find younger and a less expensive (albeit high end prospects) cost

It will be interesting to see where he winds up and for how much.

not at $15M per year

he'll get something in the 2/24 to 3/30 range ultimately.

says Pena was on top of Tigers list and mentions other DH possibilities for them, Soriano barely a blip.

Soriano barely a blip
Heckler article on Sori...says his really name is Wally and is really 58

not sure who doing the picking here but a mock draft for 2012 with the Cubs getting HS rhp/hard thrower and son of former Padre reliever, Lance McCullers Jr at #6 and RHP Carson Fulmer in the supplement pick (for ARam) at #42.



a starting gig LeMahieu

Rockies close to acquiring Scutaro allegedly

Red Sox going with Iglesias I guess?

(guess they have Aviles and Punto too)

LeMahieu starting gig?

2nd base in COL...woo/ugg.

2nd base in CHC...woo/ugg.

would clear about $6M off the books, enough to pay Oswalt maybe?

and Troy Renck quickly squashes his own story

does say they will continue to look for a 2bmen though, maybe LeMahieu is their 3b filler until Arenado is ready.

they signed casey blake for 3rd. their 2nd base is a black hole, a way worse than the cubs, though it's close enough to not care, really.

forgot about Blake, thanks.

happy 29th soto...

I don't get it?

the tweet was a response to Szczur saying "Nothin better than making someones day with a simple conversation!"

doesn't seem too scandalous to me...

-edit- crunch edited it.

yeah, i didnt want to get into it, especially matt morrison (football) or scuzr's ego-drive. it had a high possibility for a clusterfuck and ultimately neither guy's makeup should derail what they do for a living. it's totally not scandal territory...i just find matt s's attitude and his up/down joy/anger in life a little unpredictable (but hey, he's a kid). i changed it to happy 29th soto. looks like the clusterfuuuu was created anyway. sorry.

Bruce Levine:
"If the Cubs began play today, they would have $109 million committed to the 25-man roster and $3 million to the 15 other players on the 40-man roster. Major league teams also add another $2 million in medical replacement pay for recalls when players go on the DL.

The total would be $114 million with the only arbitration case rounded off to $10 million for Matt Garza.

Let's assume the team will still add a couple of back-up infielders that might bring the 2012 payroll up to $120 million, which would be a savings of $11 million from 2011."

Wait, I thought it was at $70 million?

6m on "backup infielders"...okay...wilson betemit is gonna be a hell of a cubs bench player.

the link as I was about to post that, although I disagree about adding anymore backup infielders, seems they're full on the 40-man and enough parts for the major league roster. Maybe they swap out a pitcher for an infielder considering they lost Bianchi.

Still have to make the roster move to fit Kerry.

on that note, looks like Cubs may be signing INF Matt Tolbert

Best of luck to my boy Matt Tolbert with the Chicago cubs


well, that gives them 5.6m-ish to work with for that other IF'r.


spring training + broadcast schedule

Awesome, second year in a row with no radio blackout!

Spring training on the radio ... no wonder my wife thinks I'm a freak.

Not that I don't appreciate the info, but a rather random ending paragraph.

Off the field, the Cubs continue to modify internal operations with an eye toward belt-tightening in areas besides team payroll, including reducing the daily meal allowance for scouts from $50 to $30.

Reducing the daily meal allowance is the first thing the new regime did that is absolutely idiotic. This is not the way to revamp your scoutng department. It is a way to piss of your scouts and discourage hiring other scouts. What is the point of this nickle and diming?

From an employee perspective, this isn't nickle and diming. I don't know how many days a year a scout works, but if I got paid $20 less per day that I worked I'd be losing about $5000 over the course of a year ($50,000 a decade, or probably somewhere between $400,000 and $500,000 by retirement). That's a significant pay decrease.

Of course, maybe they are going to pay the scouts higher base salaries or something. I don't know.

Charlie: My wife has been a consultant for the big firms. If u are in a big city, ie NY, LA, SF, per diem is 55-75. But honestly, the Cubs don't have to pay for three "squares" any more than other employers do. $30 a day in Toledo gets you a nice cont bkfst. And a decent dinner. $30 in Mexico you eat like a king.

The scouts are not being ripped off, imo. Don't kid yourself.

Yeah, I think $50 a day for food is amazing, and $30 is reasonable. I'm just saying that if this is a deal where they used to get $50 a day regardless of whether they spent it or not, then it's a significant pay cut (if not made up for else where). If all it means is that they can't eat at premiere restaurants every night, boohoo.

I'm also sure that the Cubs can figure out ways to attract (or just select) the scouts they want other than the size of their food per diem.

You can eat pretty good at Chipotle for under $10 and Chipotle is gooood. :)

On a more serious note, I'm not sure how I feel about this subject. On one hand I'm like- come on guys- this is not Joe Blow, Inc. that needs to cut corners on the corporate balance sheet by cutting per diem- This is the CHICAGO CUBS. On the other hand, things like this could be more ideological than utilitarian- perhaps to send the message to everyone in the organization that "we are going to be more careful with how we spend money".

just seemed like a sensationalized paragraph that didn't belong in a story about Pena and LaHair and lacked any real context. Wasn't there some news about hiring a bunch more scouts? Maybe $30 is closer to the industry standard and helps pay for the more scouts. Maybe they're paying the scouts more? Maybe they're just cheap bastards...

"Wasn't there some news about hiring a bunch more scouts?"

Right, and also less territory to cover, and therefore presumably fewer meals on the road.

the airports hurt...a lot. nothing at the game is cheap and unless you're scouting a pro game you probably won't see the player or reporter spread.

then again, no one's forcing anyone to buy a $5 beer while waiting on a 2 hour layover.

btw, scouts make crap money...less than most people could run a household with and unless you're single or high-up you're not going to run a family of 2-3+ people unless you already have money stashed away or another income.

You can't get rich being a scout.

A typical salary for an area scout is $25,000.

BTW, there are some interesting characters in the scouting profession. Ex-Bulls GM Jerry Krause has worked as a scout for the Yankees, Mets, and White Sox since leaving the Bulls and is presently a scout for the Arizona Diamondbacks, and Grandpa Munster (Al Lewis) used to be a scout for the NY Knicks.

As way of comparison, a year ago major league players got $89.50 per diem on the road, Division 1 college baseball players got $35 and minor league professionals got $25.

I can't imagine that the way you attract good scouts is to cut their per diem to the point that a college kid gets more ....


Cubs have #1 and #10 ranked prospect first basemen from mlb's Jonathan Mayo...

Rizzo went up to the top from #7 in 2011. The video includes a Rizzo HR and a defensive gem robbing Fontenot of a hit.

and this little tidbit on VogelBOMB...

Non-athletic would be a kind way to describe Vogelbach's body type in high school, but he's already trimmed down as he prepares for his first season of pro ball.

matt adams #6? that's cold.

btw, the cards have some heavy bats and pitching coming. hell, they have the next hot shit pitcher in the works that should see some time next year. shelby miller is gonna haunt a lot of teams.

yep, Vogelbach needs a little work there...

Engelberg fills out that jersey nicely.

Yes Virginia, there is a a real Fausto Carmona.

...and the real Fausto's mom rats the Indian's pitcher out.

per rotoworld:

During an appearance on ESPN's "Outside the Lines" on Friday, Pedro Gomez reported that Fausto Carmona was outed several weeks ago on a popular radio show in Santo Domingo by the mother of the real Fausto Carmona.

According to the report, Carmona (aka Roberto Hernandez Heredia) had been paying the family of the real Carmona for the use of his identification and refused to increase payments after the Indians picked up his $7 million club option. The U.S. government subsequently began an investigation following the interview and arrested Heredia when he went to apply for his work visa earlier this week.

video link...

LMAO...great call they get nothing. Way to kill the golden goose.

Carlos Pena is the kind of guy you want, not the kind of guy you want to get away. :(

Not if your plan is to be the worst team in baseball the next three years.

You seriously think the Cubs goal/plan is to be the worst team in baseball the next three years? They don't want Pena because they need to get TheHair and eventually Rizzo playing time which, I'm sure, is basically your point. Who should we have hired? And what should his/her plan have been? Keep restocking the rotting major league carcas with overpaid free agents? The pessimism and snarkiness is getting old. They have to start somewhere, no? Also I think they'll avoid being among the worst 4-5 teams in baseball even this year, and it'll be fun to watch compared to the double-off-the-wall-watching, cushy-assed, no-defense, first-pitch-waving lazy-assed teams of the last few years.

rockies finally get scoot for 2nd from BOS for clay mortensen.

Now the Red Sox don't have a SS. There's some talk the reason they traded Lowrie and Scutaro is because they're getting Castro as the Theo compensation. I think that talk is mostly coming from Red Sox fans. I wonder about those fans' collective perspective sometimes.

They are a bit delusional.

BOS spent the payroll up and they're trading useful parts in order to obtain other useful parts...the trade was a pure payroll dump. a lot of the more "sane" types think it's to clear loot to pick up another SP.

they don't want a luxury tax sting. lackey and crawford already sting enough. plus the whole d.ortiz arbitration/contract thing.

According to Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe:

"Prince Fielder, 1B, free agent - The fact that one of the best hitters in the game is unsigned as we head into late January is the story of the winter. Who will give Fielder seven years? One AL East GM thinks it comes down to the Rangers and Nationals, with the Brewers and Cubs taking a shot if he settles for a one-year deal and elects to become a free agent again."

Why would the Cubs be interested in signing Fielder for just one year? By all accounts, 2012 is going to be a wasted year for the Cubs. Why would they want to pay someone $25 million to be part of a mediocre (or worse) team?

It seems much more likely that the Cubs only have interest in Fielder if they can get him on a 5-7 year contract. That's they only way he's going to be part of the team in a year or three when the Cubs are supposed to be good.

With Rizzo waiting in the wings, it wouldn't be the worst move. You'd have some slugging in Wrigley, which the casual fan loves, and you'd have the option of signing him longer term if he loves it here, and Rizzo doesn't pan out. If Rizzo smokes up AAA, and Fielder still likes it here and you want to resign him for more, you have a nice trade chip in Rizzo.

Besides, if you bring in Fielder, you have a shot in a pretty mediocre division. Normally, I'd think the Reds aren't mediocre, but with Dusty at the helm...

Everyone says that 2012 will be a wasted year, but their criteria is that the Cubs are not likely to win their division. But winning it all isn't the only thing, especially if you have interest payments on the debt to make.

The only pertinent question to Epstein and Ricketts, in deciding whether to sign Fielder to a one year contract is whether he will bring in more income than they have to pay in salary.

Most of us on this board are rabid fans who want only to win. But a great many fans go to Wrigley strictly for entertainment and excitement. And home runs are both entertaining and exciting. The park was filled when Sammy Sosa was hitting home runs for a mediocre team. It will probably be filled if Fielder is hitting home runs for a mediocre team.

With income coming in from ticket sales, beer and food sales, rooftop sales, jersey sales, as well as general good will generated by a home run star, I have no idea what Fielder is worth in a one year deal.

But I bet that Epstein and Ricketts know.

You think that Fielder will really mean $25M in extra ticket sales?

That's 20% of what he said, so no. Read again.

Fair enough... I guess I just skimmed the comment originally.

But my point is that there is no way that any non-contending team signs Prince Fielder because they think he increases their revenue enough to justify the high price tag. Teams will sign Prince Fielder because they think that he will help get their team over the top sometime over the life of the contract.

Well, I wonder what the general TCR consensus is: you have $50-80MM you can ammoratize, and you have enough ammo for either Cespedes, or Fielder knowing all there is to know,on face value.

What will you do?

"You make the call."

Keep in mind Cespedes' real name may be Javier Blanco, and he may be 31.

Henry Blanco's evil younger brother?

xavier white...pass.

Yikes...wasn't his brother murdered?

You're thinking of Xavier Henry, and, no, his brother was NOT murdered. As far as I know.

No, I think I'm thinking of the guy I'm thinking of. This is the story of the guy of whom I'm thinking:

No, Joe. I'm pretty sure you were thinking of the guy I said you were thinking of. You just weren't thinking of him correctly. Nice try, though, Joe. Better luck tomorrow.

My mistake.

Kenny Williams' son costs the 49ers a shot at Super Bowl

Fielder to Nats

MLBInsideNews Scott Swaim
#Breaking: #Nationals to sign Prince Fielder to 8 year deal.

haha okay, I guess not.

Yup, that guy is developing a reputation as something of a twitter troll.

Seems like Nats, orioles, and rangers are in the mix, maybe even Dodgers. 8-yr deal is the current rumor.

mlbinsidenews is 3 for 1000 in predictions this offseason.

Jackson ranked 5th among outfielders. Don't understand why they rank OF's like that. Either do it by individual position or do a top 30.

this will soon become a joke on Deadspin or Twitter

except the Idaho Cubs have nothing to do with the Cubs other than the name and that the Boise Hawks sponsor them...looks like a Idaho state traveling team/prospect camp.

If they have nothing to do with the Cubs then how do they get away with using the Cubs name and logo??

I played on the Cubs in little league.

I was not a member of the Cubs organization though.

C'mon Rob. You of all people know what I'm talking about and it's not the word "cubs" it's the combination of name, colors and TRADEMARKED logo. MLB has been jealously guarding all of these the last few years and recently won a $2.4 million lawsuit against Upperdeck baseball cards over just this thing. Note the "TM" in the Idaho Cubs logo which is identical to the Chicago Cubs....

C'mon navigator. You of all people know those are not Chicago Cubs prospects, but rather HS kids from Idaho.

For all I know the Cubs let them use the name because of the affiliation with the Boise Hawks. Maybe for a fee, maybe just to spread some local goodwill. But to the original articles from Big League Stew and the CBS Sports blog and my original point, those are not Cubs prospects as they wrote.

They've both since corrected their articles.

it's a cubs sponsored prospect camp, that's all. it's a good semi-private showcase for scouts and instruction from coaches for kids looking to get something beyond their highschool or college coaches. it attracts kids from all over the northwest.

it's practically a private scouting session while dangling instruction at a cheap price from pros as a carrot. it's not attracting the cream of the crop as much as it a place where diamonds in the rough are polished a bit and get a good look from scouts for that thing or 2 (or more) that might up their game.

also...the program is evidently run by one of the best lovers of the game, gary van tol. this is a guy who was an unpaid coach for the boise hawks for a few years before getting a paying job as a scout, btw.

Speaking of unpaid scouts, Epstein would do well to hire Arizona Phil as a scout.

No, he likes expensive meals.

Actually, I'm guessing Theo wouldn't like hearing how stupid all his moves are.

Yeah, but Theo's got moooves he's nevah seeen before.

maybe if Phil changed his name to Jonah Phil, billy beane would hire him.

Because of Jonah Keri? Or because of the whale?

The actor, of course

When I was in Little League in 1955, I played for the Hamilton Park Cubs.

I am pretty sure that Phil Wrigley never authorized the use of the name.

1955 eh? You need to catch up...

Start here

"...Idaho Cubs prospect team, led by Bench Coach Gary Van Tol, composed of high school players in the greater Treasure Valley area with hopes to play at the next level."

Because the Ricketts family sucks?

Interesting that Blue Jays rank #1. You'd think they would be the perfect trade partner for Garza.

They were linked but they, along with all others, rumored to say the price was too high. If there's not an extension by the end of spring training, I presume that EpHoy is going to shop Garza again in July and hope someone's now willing to pay.

At this point, I'm OK with trading or extending. What doesn't sound good is letting him walk at the end of '13 for a draft pick.

garza should be signed, imo.

not only is he good, but he's a morning bird...he's up at 6-8am whether it's a day game or an off-day. surprisingly, he's not much of a party guy.

I think Cubs brass has pretty much made it clear that the options on Garza are trade for a high yield return or sign to a multi-year contract.

if they want to give up the prospects that is...not like they're right in the thick of the AL East right now.


"According to FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal, the Tigers, Marlins and Cubs have been "most active" on Yoenis Cespedes."

also, i don't have a link, but i read something last night about MIL being out of the P.Fielder sweepstakes, even for a 1 year deal, because they're going to be over-budget as it is once they pay their arb kids.

after the rizzo trade i doubt the cubs are in on fielder, though.

full list of players that exchanged arbitration figures with clubs, Garza is the biggest gap at $4.55M above Lincecum and Giants at $4.5M.

I'm wearing my bored face.

im confused if i should be rooting for ben sheets to be the next cubs project or conner jackson. i don't know how low to aim.

I'll go with Sheets.

No Sheet?

You don't wanna get in between the Sheets?

"Don't you think there's a place for you in between the sheets?"

Johnny Damon.

2/$40.5M for Lincecum

2 year deal with 3rd year option for Betemit from O's

Nats seem like the last team standing for Fielder.

He signs for 7/154.......Over or under years/dollars/annual


you were only $60M off...

Wow! Didn't see that coming.

Still in the neighborhood as far as annual compensation though.

boom, Tim Brown says Tigers on a 9 year deal.

9/200M according to Heyman

-edit- 9/214 actually

on that note, is Cabrera moving to DH or will they try him at 3b again?

good day for the NL Central

And...thank god we didn't sign him for that. This deal is why all these hypothetical scenarios for how we could compete this season and compete long term are bogus.



Well, he will have a couple or three years of above average play, and the its on to DH in the AL.

In one yr the Tigers will have 3 good DH's. VArt, Cabrera and Prince.

Does commish Bud want to add another DH to the AL as his next project after adding another playoff team?

The AL is starting to remind me of the Baseball Bugs Bunny cartoon.

I know people hate Boras, but he's one hell of an agent.

Was he Mo Vaughn's agent, too?

I don't think so, but a perusal of wikipedia shows that he was in the Cubs' minor league system for a bit. A bit of trivia I did not know.

jeff morad was/is his agent...used to be adam katz

allstar 2nd tier agents...cuz boras gets his own tier.

I think Boras was Jerry Macguire's boss

boras -never- puts a dollar amount on his clients. he -never- tells another team what another has bid.

he's almost like the japanese posting system...he'll let someone overpay by 10s of millions if they perceive a market that may or may not exist.

miggy is supposedly moving back to 3rd...that should be interesting.

Somebody in the AL centraal should sign Juanny Pierre and bunt them to death.

he lost his legs last year...shame, really...i thought he had at least a couple more years in his legs based on his 2010 surge.

he can still play CF, someone will probably give him 500+ abs and a few million.

"he can still play CF, though"
Didn't watch too many Sox games last year did you?

alex rios wins 10 times out of 10 in that race, and probably wins even with pierre in his prime...unless you want rios's good arm in RF, that is.

it has been a while since he's played CF, but i doubt every team is counting him out there. along with the legs, being able to see the ball off the bat and get your jump is the skill you're looking for there. pierre gets that done...then he has to throw the ball, though. sigh.

"pierre gets that done"

Did you watch him last year?
He was terrible in LF and Cf is harder.

He was Soriano-like out there.

He costs the Sox like 5 games.

quite honestly, i'd be surprised to see him playing CF for anyone other than rest/injury replacement, but i wouldn't count him out given the market.

he's more of a LF/DH type to most teams, but i think he could handle CF for a team that needed one.

we'll agree to disagree, hope your doing well.

doing great...rebuilding my body over the next few months and re-joining the real world. thnx.

watching Naked Gun with my sons for the first time.
They love it.

raising them right...good job.

Holy shit, Lawrence Tierney is the Angels manager.

Never notice that.

Kenny Lofton isn't available?

**he can still play CF, though**

I didn't know that he could play CF in the first place.

Pierre has 1 skill - running really fast. For his speed, he was always a pretty mediocre base runner and mediocre fielder. He almost always got bad jumps, had bad reads, and took bad routes to balls. And his arm was worse than Ryan Theriot's.

"Pierre has 1 skill - running really fast."

2,000 hits at age 34.

And all but 336 were singles.

His XBH% is 4.5. Pete Rose's was 6.6.

I just thought getting a lot of hits might be a skill.

Shame on you!

Did you really just compare Pete Rose to Juan Pierre? Juan Pierre has a lot more speed, and Pete Rose was pretty clearly the superior hitter. And when you control for eras, the two are not remotely comparable.

Rose: 118
Pierre: 84

And while Pete Rose only had a 6.6% XBH%, it is also important to understand that we are talking about different eras. The league average XBH% while Rose played was 6.3%. In contrast, Pierre's 4.5% XBH% compares to a league average of 7.9%.

we can make it even more complicated by adjusting pierre's slugging to reflect how he ended up on 2nd 650+ times and 3rd 100+ times via his stealing...and penalize his ob% for CS. of course this ignores the impact of a runner in front of pierre via that "type of slugging."

i'm not getting into that comparing rose/pierre thing, though...i'm staying away from that...

**how he ended up on 2nd 650+ times and 3rd 100+ times via his stealing**

Actually, he stole 2nd 436 times and 3rd 174 times, according to BR.

But yea, there are other factors to look at beyond just what they do with the bat.

it's been done and posted on here many times.
don't care to look it up now though...

wOBA or wRC+ on fangraphs also properly weighs SB/CS.

Pierre: .321 wOBA, 89 wRC+
Rose: .353 wOBA, 120 wRC+

i wouldn't use wRC+, but then again using wOBA (which i would use) has it's own issues, one of which brought up.

re: rose/ least compare guys with similar skill sets...hitting singles is about the only skill set they share. maybe pierre can throw a punch or is bad at gambling, too, dunno.

Each stat has its own issues. My point is that no matter what you look at, Rose and Pierre are not remotely comparable. Such a comparison, is, frankly, absurd.


Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that Rose would hit more doubles today? Alternatively, you could be saying that Rose would still be a singles hitter but would be appreciated less today.

In either case, here are a couple of other names off the top of my head, Aparicio and Ozzie Smith. Aparicio's XBH% was 5.1, Smith's 4.6. Their gloves and the position they played had a lot to do with their reputations today, but no one is saying that Pierre is a hall of famer, just that he has some skill as a hitter.

**Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that Rose would hit more doubles today**

I'm saying that you have to understand players within the era that they played in. Saying that Rose and Pierre are remotely similar due to their XBH% is silly.

**Their gloves and the position they played had a lot to do with their reputations today**

Ya' think? Again, not even remotely similar. If Juan Pierre could play defense like Ozzie Smith, at any position, he would be a MUCH better baseball player. And I don't think anyone ever considered Ozzie Smith a good hitter. And I have no idea what people thought about Aparicio when he played, but he surely wasn't a good, or even decent, hitter either. He was actually pretty awful. So I'm pretty sure that you don't really want to compare Pierre to Aparicio.

It's hard for me to argue about hitting with someone who is a child of the Moneyball era.

I don't suppose I could convince you that Nellie Fox was a good hitter, but everybody in Chicago thought he was. Unlike Aparicio, he was not a particularly good middle infielder, and he didn't steal bases. Yet he made the all-star team twelve times.

His hitting numbers look very much like Pierre's. Mostly he just cranked out a lot of singles. He's in the hall of fame, too.

can't say I watched Fox play, but his defensive numbers look pretty good on Baseball Reference and he won 3 GG's. Not that I would put a ton of stock into it.

Fox also walked a bit more with a bit more slugging than Pierre and more importantly was better at hitting singles (which is really just better at making contact). Every player that is good enough to make a major league roster is gonna be good enough to hit singles. It's a matter if they can make consistent enough contact and their other skills that will define how good they are.

and also, the era you play in obviously defines the quality of player you are. Nature evolves, so does baseball.

"Nature evolves, so does baseball."

Evolution is usually considered progressive, while fashion is cyclical. I think both metaphors apply here.

So you are saying what, exactly, is cyclical?

Having terrible plate discipline is going to come back in vogue.

Speed and defense may already be coming back into vogue. Hoyer and Epstein seem to like it. Sveum has already said he's considering leading off with Campana.

You probably thought Campana would be released. You may be falling behind the curve, Doc.

Speed and defense may already be coming back into vogue.

I didn't know that speed/defense was out of vogue?

the 4-man rotation, the multi-inning relief ace and starting pitchers that throw 300 IP a season are just around the corner.

intellectual fashion

And WTF does that have to do with baseball? What, exactly, about players' values is cyclical?

You know, it should also be noted that Moneyball wasn't really about things like OBP, but instead about how the A's (and others) determined what was undervalued (OBP) at the time.

It is undeniable that OBP has a very high correlation to runs scored. But that really isn't the point. Successful teams, especially small-market ones, need to find ways to get more value than they are paying for.

It is VERY possible that speed or defense may be undervalued. But it isn't very possible that OBP will magically no longer have a high correlation to runs scored.

In other words, the actual value of a player isn't cyclical. But the way that teams perceive that value may be cyclical, which in turn creates the market for players, and may lead to undervaluing certain skills.

teams have been aware of ob% for shows at contract time.

what the A's did was overblown as hell, and what was accomplished before the "celebration" layed out in the book made the A's look stronger than what was spelled out in the book.

the "grade" the A's have gotten from what was celebrated in the book and afterwards has been mediocre at best. TB has been quietly living the Moneyball reality top to bottom while the A's can't even wheel spin or march their way back up in a 4-team division.

maybe their minor league system could use more PEDs. and yeah, there's more to moneyball than hiring a bunch of guys who can't run or hit for contact well that can walk 30 more times than their peers.

**It's hard for me to argue about hitting with someone who is a child of the Moneyball era.**

Yea... I guess it is hard to argue about something when the other person uses, you know, facts and data.

" the other person uses, you know, facts and data"

I have no trouble with your facts or data, Big, it's the circular way you use them.

maybe let's not use two guys that were defensive wizards at shortstop as your comp to Juan "Popgun" Pierre in the outfield.

Rose also walked a lot more (nearly double the BB%) and while not a power hitter, hit for quite a bit more than Pierre (58% higher ISO).

anyway, Pierre was a decent player that was overpaid twice; by the Cubs in a trade and the Dodgers on a contract.

the list of decent players in MLB that were overpaid is long and illustrious.

not to make a habit of agreeing with VA Phil, but he wouldn't have lasted this long if he was just speed. He also made contact that got him on base to use that speed and was a very good bunter.

Otherwise Joey Gathright and Tony Campana would be regulars.

In the 80's both guys probably would be regulars. However the evolution of Metics has dimmed the view of speed only players.

Juan Pierre was a really dangerous guy 10 years ago though. I hated playing the Marlins when Pierre and Castillo were batting 1,2

Fair enough... he had 3 skills - speed, bunting, and (weak) contact.

I would argue that he stuck around more because of poor decisions by GMs rather than actually being useful. He wasn't the worst player in baseball, by any means, but he was long overrated.

This may be 3/44 but Cespedes was granted residency in the DR today, so once MLB confirms his eligibity as FA, the fun begins.

Presumably, Tigers are now out so Marlins and Cubs duke it out.

took long enough...phew...time to see which cuban the cubs get cuz it's almost common consensus we're getting one of them.

I'm hoping it's Soler. I'd be fine with both, if it doesn't overburden the payroll.


MLBFakeRumors Source: Cabrera willing to move to 3B, if he can get a ride. "


hit/miss twitter humor...on a decent roll lately.

Since the Tigers are obviously going all-in now with this latest move, does that mean there's still hope they might trade for Garza? They're one solid SP away from matching up with the Yankees and Rangers pretty damn well. Send us Turner and Castellanos (who is now blocked at 3B) for Garza and we'll call it a deal.

Other than Garza, Oswalt is about the only other remaining option out there, and I thought I read he doesn't want to pitch in Detroit for some reason.

Unfortunately, Detroit's move does mean there is now a zero market for Soriano, we're either stuck with him or Ricketts will need to eat the entire $54MM.

I presume Fielder's contract is going to prevent Tigers from spending another $25m or so that Garza would cost over the next 2 years.

What about a Garza, Russell + 10 Million for Turner and Castellanos?

They are obviously all in on 2012. So they get 2 pieces to help out free of cost, in return for 2 prospects who look to be blocked at the MLB level.

That makes no sense.

Pretty sure if the Cubs were going to send $10M to Detroit, they would just sign Garza to an extension.

ADDING... And how is Turner blocked in Detroit?

He'd be blocked by Garza, duh...

I say this with all due respect, but you come up with the craziest trade ideas.

Are you saying that to me? I'd hardly call Garza for Turner and Castellanos a crazy idea, it's been discussed in roughly those terms for the better part of a month.

believe it's this one

"Garza, Russell + 10 Million for Turner and Castellanos?"

it makes sense on some levels, but it's so radical it's hard to imagine 2 GMs getting in on the cubs would most likely have to add someone with russell or replace russell with brett jackson, etc...

I was referring to aaronb, the reply formatting is tough to follow sometimes if there's a reply within a reply.

It's the Cubs sending $10M along with Garza that is nutty. Maybe they'd send $2-$3m to make up the cost of what he should get in arbitration $9M and what he may get $12M, but no way they'd contemplate for a second giving $10M and a good player for two prospects that aren't necessarily sure things (so, so few are).

Guh, didn't see that......Garza is the prize, why the hell would the Cubs send money to the Tigers Aaron? Plus a useful lefty reliever? Nutty indeed.

Regarding my original post, I suppose Toronto might conceivably still be interested in Garza, but I don't know that they have the prospects that are as interesting as what Detroit has to offer. The Nats might conceivably be a trade partner, they seem committed to improving NOW and they missed out on several high-profile free agents. And I guess the Angels might be a remote possibility if they panic now that Darvish is signed.

On a different note--it is stunning how much the top talent in baseball has shifted to the AL in recent years. Junior circuit in name only. Honestly, you can count the marquee players in the NL at this point on two hands.

My thinking is that the Cubs pay Garza's salary in 2012 in exchange for better prospects from Detroit.

They are obviously all in right now. So maybe they'd be willing to punt some future in exchange for a free 1.5 starter and a loogy to help 2012-2013.

Just a thought.

Blue jays have plenty of talent and are ranked in the top 3 of most farm system rankings. Just don't think they are in a rush to give up any of them, not like Garza is going to put them over the top in the AL east. Nats blew their prospect wad on Gio Gonzalez obviously.

I hear that they're happy with Verlander, Fister, Scherzer, Porcello, and Turner for 2012. If one of the top 4 goes down or chokes, maybe they make the move mid-season.

Heh. Fister.

I've been waiting for you to pick up on that one.

Sadly, I'm amused every time I hear/read that name. Supposedly, I'm an adult.


I also giggle at Fister. I also think of Izturis, Cesar.

If something like that happened to the Tigers, Cubs could possibly move Garza + Dempster plus whatever Dempster's owed for Turner and more prospects. But that's a lot of what ifs....

But I see no reason why Tigers should move Turner at this point. See what you have in him, they can afford to wait it out.

dumpster's daughter and her care is a concern in asking dumpster to go anywhere. she's doing MUCH better than she was, though. she can swallow food/liquids now. they have a whole network of nurses/docs in place in chicago.

dunno how receptive he'd be to a pre-season trade...or a mid-season trade.

mid-season is what I was thinking and by that point, the Cubs will likely be sucking and it will be obvious that he's not coming back to the team in 2013 that he'll be more receptive to a short jaunt over to Michigan for a few months.

as I said, a lot of what if's....

Name the former Cub stopper in the cammo suit-

Nevermind. I first read "starter", not "stopper".

He's officially a free agent now.

Hey, it's January...let's compare Juan Pierre with Pete Rose. WTF?


You can compare anyone to anyone if you can find a point of comparison--like Pete Rose and Michael Jordan, for example, in terms of their competitiveness and their eagerness to bet on themselves. That doesn't mean that Jordan was a switch hitter.

**You can compare anyone to anyone if you can find a point of comparison**

This is true. You also just have to be ready for everyone to tell you such a comparison is absurd.

If you have frizzy hair, Big, I can compare you to Einstein (in terms of your hair) and it wouldn't be absurd.

Sure... but even the original comparison to Rose didn't make any sense. At all. Rose had significantly more power than Pierre, and when you factor in eras, it wasn't even close.

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