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Feedback on Waldorf - "Cult-like???"

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
Hi All, I'm new to this, so let me just say thanks in advance for any feedback you can give me on this topic....

I recently visited a Waldorf school for the first time, and fell in love with everything about it. I am considering sending my son (6) there next year, as public school is not doing it for him for many reasons. The problem is, when I mentioned Waldorf to various people, their responses included the word "cult or cult-like". Has anyone any inkling of what they are referring to? Thanks!!!
post #2 of 30
No reading until age 9 or so.

No tv, no computers, no battery operated toys.

Many holidays involving xtian saints.

Teacher stays with kids for several years.... which is fine if its a good fit, but .
post #3 of 30
I hear it varies greatly from school to school.
post #4 of 30
To get a feel for the strengths, weakness, and controversies within Waldorf, go to the Waldorf sub forum and then sort the threads by number of responses. The longest ones contain long conversations between Waldorf-happy and Waldorf-critical people. There are many wonderful things about Waldorf, and there are some tough things about it that you won't find on the school tours or in the pamphlets.

The "cult" thing usually is in reference to Anthroposophy. It will be spoken of as a "spiritual philosophy" yet some of us view it as a religion (except for the fact that they are generally uncomfortable with the term) and some even call it a cult. Most Waldorf teachers are anthroposophists and all must be comfortable working through anthroposophy.

My advice is enjoy all the beautiful things you are seeing, but definitely turn over the stones as well. It is a great fit for many children and parents and a poor one for others.

Come back with questions if you have them!
post #5 of 30
try openwaldorf.com
post #6 of 30
Moving to Waldorf subforum
post #7 of 30
Thread Starter 
thanks all for your wisdom, and openwaldorf.com is a great site for more insight - thanks pigpokey!
post #8 of 30
I think the general public is often put off by Waldorf just because it sounds so strange and different. No media/computers, wholesome food, not reading till age 7? Bizzarre!!! LOL!

My kids (6 yo twins) have been in a Waldorf environment since the beginning and when I started exploring it as an educational philosophy I got a little freaked out by stuff on the web (there's a lot of negativity).

Basically, I think it seems to come down to your school and your child's teachers. We are not anthroposophists and have had really great experiences with Waldorf. Our school is definately not cultish, but maybe some are?

Spend some time at the school you are considering and trust your "gut" either way.
post #9 of 30
We are Waldorf-inspired homeschoolers and to be honest, I do think Waldorf is cult-like. "Cult" is actually the first word that pops to mind when I think of Waldorf because it really stresses uniformity and conformity. I'm not really sure if that is caused by Waldorf (I think some of it is) or if it just attracts a certain clientele (this is probably the other part of it). I don't think Waldorf HAS to be cult-like but in general it tends toward that, and people fall into the cult mindset fairly easily. And once you have conformed to meet the "norm," then you and everyone else congratulates themselves on "fitting in," and to be honest, I empathize with the comfort of that. My dh grew up LDS (which I also define as a cult for the same reason), and I have Mormon friends, all of whom look alike, talk alike, think alike (or on the surface, pretend they do). Much of their "inner work" time is spent in further conforming to the status quo, or the ideal they are supposed to become. Like I have observed in many Waldorf circles, it makes them feel secure in knowing that so many other people are like them so that in itself must mean they are doing the right thing, which in reality is very circular logic. I'm not trying to attack Mormons or Waldorf purists but rather make a comparison between two "cultures" that are very different in scope but that have similar tendencies of conformity, guilt, and not presenting all knowledge upfront but in stages as one gets further involved, which is how I define a cult. In Waldorf, for example, just by reading Heaven on Earth, a text that gets recommended to newbies quite often, one would never know that within Waldorf circles, one is expected to have curved wooden picture frames displaying second-rate watercolor art, blond hardwood furnture only, Stockmar crayons/paints only, hardwood floors with sheep skin rugs, and hand-knitted hats. And don't forget about wet-on-wet painting or fingerplays or nature tables, or verses for transitions! Also, things like clothing are regulated--only natural fibers, no busy-ness, cheerful colors, woolens in winter, etc. These are all the Waldorf things that you have to pick up on little by little to mold into the Waldorf culture. I also think of a cult when I think of people feeling guilt for not doing things the proper way ("Is this Waldorf enough?" is a common question battered about a lot by Waldorf parents). When one wants to leave this culture, one is usually shunned by those remaining. For reference, check out the Life After Waldorf thread here on MDC: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...+after+waldorf . This is a very eye-opening thread about institutionalized Waldorf education, and one that I think every parent considering a Waldorf school should read just to be made aware of the possiblities. I also feel there is a lot of double-speak in Waldorf: I have seen so many conversations on Waldorf blogs that use Steiner's words as fact, as if his ideas were empirically proven and were ultimate truth, and then I have seen various people reinforce the same ideas over and over until they weren't basing their ideas off of their experience but off the platitudes that everyone else has uttered. If I could only count how many times I have heard/read that only toys made of natural fibers were creative, when the reality is far more complex! However, in any Waldorf 101, there will be the statement that one should choose only toys that are made of natural fibers for no other reason than that these are "real toys". There even exists a Flickr Waldorf group completely devoted to mothers taking pictures of their children's wooden toys, and to be honest, I find this very bizarre. It's as if by participating they are all applauding and reinforcing each other's tastes, which wouldn't be disturbing if they were different, but they aren't. They may arrange their Ostheimer figurines differently on their wooden castle blocks, but they are still the same toys over and over. I'm not trying to belittle these mothers by any means, I just really and truly don't understand this impulse or the purpose of this group. It comes across as very clique-ish, like a particular club one is able to join if one meets certain criteria--not unlike a cult to me--and I wonder how prevalent this type of exclusiveness is among other Waldorf parents. I am only mentioning this type of behavior to let you know that as a Waldorf parent, there may be particular expectations of YOU, not just your child. Waldorf is very much seen as a lifestyle, not just an educational choice, and some parental communities are more open to difference than others.

We homeschool, so I don't really have much experience with Waldorf teachers but I do with parents, and I think that within a Waldorf community you may find it more or less "cult-like" depending upon how purist it is and how open it is to differences and change. However, Anthroposophy by it's nature is ideological, and that is the very foundation of Waldorf education and something that I've heard guides teacher interactions with students to a very strong degree. However, that may or not matter depending on how it affects your child. Anthroposophy also has very definite beliefs in regard to what a child learns and when/how s/he learns it, so if your child is gifted or does not fit the Waldorf standard for some reason, then there may be conflict. If you haven't heard of "temperments" or how they guide teacher interactions with Waldorf students, you may want to do some googling, and the same goes for the Anthroposophical beliefs in regard to human development. But, depending on your particular school, this stuff may not be problematic. However, definitely do some thorough research and then have an extended discussion with the teacher that your child would have. Go in with full knowledge of Anthroposophy and have a discussion with the teacher about his/her feelings in that regard. I would also check out the school fairs or prospective parent meetings to see to what degree you seem to fit in with the parental community they've got there. That may tell you a lot.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best (and all the beauty that Waldorf has the potential of being!)!
post #10 of 30
My kids go to waldorf and I was so nervous sending them after reading all the negative stuff online. I spoke to other parents before we enroll and it seems the "cult"ness varies from school to school. Our school is pretty relaxed! We were definitely all for the media awareness!
post #11 of 30
I'll have to let my daughter know that she is failing waldorf 101, 201 and 301 all the way down the line.

Despite being a waldorf graduate herself and having two kids in a waldorf school and having run a waldorf home day care for four years she just isn't "waldorf" enough.


I've been involved with Highland Hall in Los Angeles as a student and as a parent. Involved with the Toronto Waldorf School as a parent. Involved with the Chicago Waldorf School as a staff member. Involved with the Orchard Valley Waldorf School as a grandparent and also involved in a related non-profit.

Nope. None of them have the characteristics outlined above as cult like.

Now I do happen to have first-hand experience with two cults. Scientology for a couple of years for one, and a small sect of very narrow Christians for another. In both cases there was a lot of control and manipulation.

With waldorf, what I have seen happening, is that some parents get sort of swept away by the whole thing and start going to extremes. But it certainly isn't demanded. Waldorf schools don't have the power (at least not in the U.S.) to turn away parents who let their children watch TV, or play with plastic toys, or eat junk food, or skip the woolies.
post #12 of 30
Personally, I think that the term "cult" gets thrown around a bit too loosely. Labelling other philosophies, religions, what-have-you, as cults is itself a scare tactic and form of control. I've seen it happen this way in some religious circles--afraid of something? don't understand it? disagree with it vehemently? dislike it so much you want to keep your loved ones away from it? Well, call it a "cult" and the job is done. I've even seen La Leche League and AP/NFL referred to as cultish and described according to the so-called definition of a cult. (Read the book Bottlefeeding Without Guilt for either a good laugh or a good opportunity to roll your eyes.)

(Disclaimer: I do think there really are cults out there... but not nearly so many as some people would like us to believe.)

I do think it's important if you're looking into Waldorf to understand that it is based on a spiritual philosophy. And I think that it's important to have some understanding of that philosophy. All you have to do is google the term "Waldorf education" and there will be plenty of positives and negatives to read about. Then you can decide for yourself what you believe and how you feel about it. Read some Steiner! I think this is really important! I had heard so much about Steiner from other people, both people who adore him and people who think he's nuts, who were quick to pass on what he supposedly said. I haven't read a lot, but reading Rhythms of Learning (a collection of Steiner lectures edited by Roberto Trostli) was a really good thing. I feel like I have at least a taste of what this man is. Some I love, some I don't. .
post #13 of 30
Laurel, I agree that the term cult is best used for situations of abuse, intimidation and the ceding of personal property. From my perspective Waldorf children are really just kids who often have a pretty good set of circumstances at school and at home. Waldorf parents come in all stripes, and certainly can fall into cliquishness and more Waldorf than thou-ness as Lux Perpetua thoughfully and honestly describes (and yes, all this stuff really happens). Waldorf teachers are clearly, from my perpective, coreligionists.
post #14 of 30
Laurel, I agree with the term cult being used to try and control people in their choices by making them scared of the thing being called a cult.

I was educated in a Waldorf school, and my experience was not one of being brainwashed to believe something or behave in a certain way. I feel like my education gave me the skills to be a contributing member of society, a love or learning and a head start in being sceptical of screen time and electronic toys for babies.

I do not know if my children will be educated in a Waldorf school, at home or in a different educational style that I have yet to find. I am drawn to Waldorf as we share values when it comes to food, toys, delayed academics, rhythm of festivals (here in Israel the rhythm is Jewish, around Shabbat and the Jewish festivals) and a broad variety of experiences in the lower classes.

I think a lot of the cliquishness comes from parents making choices outside of the mainstream, often at odds with family and friends. And parents want to validate each others' choices. Which of course has the potential to wrong. In any group situation, people are going to feel pressurised to conform or not. It is always hard to not feel part of a group, whether that group endorses breastfeeding, no media, organic food, Einstein DVD's, spanking, whatever. If something does not feel right for you, it is hard to stand apart and say you don't want to be part of it. I think that is inherently human, and not something specific to Waldorf.
post #15 of 30
eh, whatever.

it's good to do your research, see what resonates with you. anthroposophy is the perspective of the teachers, but it is not taught. it just is what it is. you can do it or not, do it as much as you want or as little, and if the school is similar, then so be it. if not, then go elsewhere.

no biggie.

(and by the by, a lot of mainstreamers would be "cults" if that definition were used. man, cliques abound!)
post #16 of 30
I was also put off by all of the anti-Waldorf information found on the web - including the long threads here on MDC. We visited many Waldorf schools, found the one we loved and our children are there now.

None of the issues I read about exist at our school...or the schools I have nearby or the parents I speak to. I also have a few Waldorf alumni friends and none of them had any of those issues.

I strongly recommend you visit local Waldorf schools, talk to teachers, express your concerns and see for yourself.

As for the "cult" aspect - I find Waldorf no more culty than oh say, Mothering.com, Natural & Attachment Parenting. A lot of like-minded folks trying hard to parent against the norm. There are just as many doctrines, rules, conformity, following, etc.
post #17 of 30
I can add a few more schools. We attend events and know families/teachers at Sac Waldorf, Rudolf Steiner College and other Bay Area schools - if you were to find "cult" Waldorf anywhere, it would be there. But nope, not there either. There are families from all walks of life - purists and not-so-purists

Sure, there are a lot of rainbows, playsilks and soft handmade toys but how does that differ from a Mothering playgroup where everyone has CDs, slings, a laptop lunch and a kleen kanteen?lol

Really, you cannot get a complete picture by reading posts online from people who have had bad experiences with Waldorf, nor by looking at Flickr photos. Imagine if MDC were judged by its forums and by the fact that some of us mams take photos of cloth diapers or slings or breastfeeding babes... Of all people, WE should understand the need to share online with people who care and understand.

What do you say to someone who is considering AP but comes across anti-AP blogs and websites? I think they refer to "us" as Sanctimommies. They are loving the whole MangoMama-AP-parenting-ruined-my-life story.
post #18 of 30
In my experience, people who feel this way haven't experienced a Waldorf school first hand. I had fears, read the websites, etc. prior to enrolling dd in preschool. NONE of my hesitations were validated, not at all. She returned for another year and we plan on keeping her there! We have family, die-hard Christian (whatever that means?), who are mum when our daughter's school is brought up. They formulated their opinions w/o even asking about our experience! Closed minded, really. But anyway, don't let it scare you away. There are going to be extremists, bad apples, etc. in every scene.
post #19 of 30
I've heard nothing but good about Waldorf preschools and kindergartens. Starting in first grade the opinions become more mixed. Some families thrive, some have no real detriment or benefit, others suffer.

So I wouldn't decide to stay with a school through all of elementary based on what I observed in the preschool/kindergarten and I wouldn't avoid the preschool/kindergarten based on what I saw/heard about 3rd grade.
post #20 of 30
Originally Posted by MamaInCA View Post
I would agree. People come and people go from school, but I don't know that any have run screaming for fear of the cult.
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