0:00:00.049,0:00:00.299 [Unofficial Transcript] 0:00:00.069,0:00:01.599 [Chairman Issa] You don’t need the labor if you can’t plant the crop to begin with, 0:00:01.599,0:00:01.849 I guess. 0:00:01.689,0:00:06.800 [Mr. Bogart] Exactly. In fact, Mr. Nassif and I have a member that is sitting here in 0:00:06.800,0:00:11.430 the room today, which I noticed when he entered into this cold hearing chamber, the temperature 0:00:11.430,0:00:18.430 went up by about 50 degrees because he is very vocal. He runs a large harvesting company, 0:00:19.189,0:00:23.949 and he has said to me -- and I am sure he has said to Tom -- hey, you don’t have to 0:00:23.949,0:00:27.179 worry about clean water. You don’t have to worry about clean air. You don’t have 0:00:27.179,0:00:31.489 to worry about food safety because you are not going to have laborers and workers to 0:00:31.489,0:00:35.090 harvest the product when it needs to be harvested. 0:00:35.090,0:00:41.730 This is huge. In fact, we annually survey our membership on the issues of most concern 0:00:41.730,0:00:48.730 to them, and farm labor availability, just standing on its own, ranks number 2 or 3 and 0:00:50.500,0:00:57.500 just this specific issue. So, yes, we have to have a temporary guest worker program. 0:00:58.730,0:01:05.730 We need AgJOBS, but agriculture needs it. We employ people that perform work that American 0:01:08.000,0:01:14.000 citizens just will not do. They have refused despite opportunities to engage in that kind 0:01:14.000,0:01:19.720 of work. And they won’t do it. So we absolutely need a temporary guest worker program here. 0:01:19.720,0:01:23.060 If we don’t get it and we have got eVerify, we are really in trouble. 0:01:23.060,0:01:30.060 [Mr. Farr] So e-Verify without immigration reform is going to do you under. 0:01:30.540,0:01:35.390 [Mr. Bogart] Yes. It would have dire consequences. 0:01:35.390,0:01:40.320 [Mr. Groot] I think one of the things that you need to consider here too is that that 0:01:40.320,0:01:45.560 workforce that will be legal and available will be under an inflationary situation because 0:01:45.560,0:01:49.790 growers are going to compete for those workers and whoever pays the highest wage is going 0:01:49.790,0:01:54.420 to get that legal worker. So you are going to see rapid wage inflation also which adds 0:01:54.420,0:01:55.710 to the cost of the product. 0:01:55.710,0:01:58.810 [Chairman Issa] You know, today it was all very the news before I came to the hearing 0:01:58.810,0:02:04.060 this morning that McDonald’s is going to hire 50,000 people, most of whom will make 0:02:04.060,0:02:11.060 $8.35 an hour. Are we to presume that you could compete favorably against McDonald’s 0:02:11.480,0:02:17.060 assuming somebody wanted to work as badly picking strawberries as flipping burgers? 0:02:17.060,0:02:19.290 [Mr. Farr] Their wages are better. 0:02:19.290,0:02:23.610 [Chairman Issa] That is what I am trying to get to. I didn’t think anyone was going 0:02:23.610,0:02:25.090 to be shy here about that. 0:02:25.090,0:02:29.670 [Mr. Farr] And a lot of them give health care. I mean, I am very, very impressed. 0:02:29.670,0:02:31.420 [Chairman Issa] Mr. Murai? 0:02:31.420,0:02:38.360 [Mr. Murai] When you are a teenager -- when I was growing up in our family farm, those 0:02:38.360,0:02:43.880 hot days, long days in the field, it was part of my culture. It was part of what I have 0:02:43.880,0:02:50.650 grown up in. But boy, some of those days, if I could have been working in McDonald’s 0:02:50.650,0:02:55.170 talking to the girls or whatever -- there is a lot of draw there. 0:02:55.170,0:03:02.170 When I came into farming, it was about 1985 or so, and a couple years after that, we had 0:03:05.240,0:03:11.069 the SAW worker program. And I really thought the country was kind of going in the right 0:03:11.069,0:03:17.270 direction because previously I heard in my dad and my grandfather’s past about these 0:03:17.270,0:03:24.270 immigration raids and the Bracero program and having to go and find workers in downtown 0:03:24.930,0:03:31.930 L.A. And so when I was a young farmer just starting out and this program was enacted, 0:03:32.040,0:03:37.180 I said, wow, maybe our country is really starting to get on the right track here feeling more 0:03:37.180,0:03:43.740 legitimate. And that kind of faded away and most of the workers that we worked at gracelita 0:03:43.740,0:03:50.660 sign-up went into other industry within a couple years, within 2 or 3 years. 0:03:50.660,0:03:57.459 And ever since that time, it is very difficult as an American farmer especially in specialty 0:03:57.459,0:04:04.410 crops to feel that our country is legitimizing us as growers, providing and growing the food 0:04:04.410,0:04:11.410 for this country, and we really need to look at that in a very serious manner of legitimizing 0:04:12.459,0:04:19.459 the American farmer because if e-Verify did hit without us already having an active, successful 0:04:21.189,0:04:27.469 program, you would see a crash. So it is not simultaneous. I understand what Jim was getting 0:04:27.469,0:04:32.389 to, but it has to be working before that happens. 0:04:32.389,0:04:38.300 [Chairman Issa] Mark, if I can follow up with you on just one thing because you mentioned 0:04:38.300,0:04:44.909 this in your statement just now. If you were to have a workforce that we said, okay, this 0:04:44.909,0:04:49.340 workforce will do it and they can come here and stay here, if I heard you right, one of 0:04:49.340,0:04:55.150 the challenges is in 3 years they would move on to other jobs or 5 years. One of the real 0:04:55.150,0:05:00.150 challenges for agriculture, particularly the specialty crops where they are highly labor-intensive, 0:05:00.150,0:05:05.879 not highly automated like tomatoes, strawberries, and the like, is basically what you need is 0:05:05.879,0:05:11.789 a workforce that will choose to do that. And that workforce disproportionately lies to 0:05:11.789,0:05:16.580 our south. These are places in which those jobs are very desirable. They will come here. 0:05:16.580,0:05:22.599 They will do the work. They will return home annually. That is really what you saw as legal 0:05:22.599,0:05:24.370 some years ago that disappeared. 0:05:24.370,0:05:29.020 [Mr. Murai] Many of the people that worked for my family for many years, even generations, 0:05:29.020,0:05:36.020 have stated to me that if there was a legitimate program where they could work here with opportunity, 0:05:37.589,0:05:44.339 but then return home to their own farms and their own towns, they would very much appreciate 0:05:44.339,0:05:51.339 that. So I think there just has to be a program that addresses the agricultural economy in 0:05:52.539,0:05:54.509 our country, food production. 0:05:54.509,0:06:01.509 [Mr. Farr] Also this labor force is different in this valley than it is in the San Joaquin 0:06:02.879,0:06:08.409 Valley where you raise fruits and nuts, and when the fruit is there, you pick it. 0:06:08.409,0:06:08.889 [Chairman Issa] Sure, once a year versus almost perpetual. 0:06:08.889,0:06:14.559 [Mr. Farr] You start from the south and move north and end up in Washington picking apples. 0:06:14.559,0:06:19.050 In this valley, particularly in the strawberry, you pick a strawberry what? Every 4 days from 0:06:19.050,0:06:19.580 the same plant? 0:06:19.580,0:06:20.449 [Mr. Murai] Every 3 days. 0:06:20.449,0:06:26.270 [Mr. Farr] So you have the same workforce working for you in the same fields year around. 0:06:26.270,0:06:32.199 There are different types of labor intensity when you are planting and harvesting, but 0:06:32.199,0:06:34.240 that goes on for 8 months here. 0:06:34.240,0:06:37.259 [Chairman Issa] When I was stationed here, I used to watch the radishes go in, grow, 0:06:37.259,0:06:42.400 go in, grow, and pretty soon I realized they grew pretty quick. 0:06:42.400,0:06:49.400 [Mr. Farr] But it is not a migratory workforce. So it is really stationary in this area. It 0:06:50.439,0:06:57.270 is much more than just guest worker. It is also the other things that go along with being 0:06:57.270,0:06:57.550 a part of -- 0:06:57.550,0:06:59.399 [Chairman Issa] We need a perpetual temporary worker here. 0:06:59.399,0:07:04.710 [Mr. Farr] Well, I am not sure that they are temporary. I wouldn't think that any of these 0:07:04.710,0:07:10.229 growers would tell you that their workers are kind of waiting around for a job. These 0:07:10.229,0:07:14.210 people -- they know them. They are involved. As one of the growers said to me, you know, 0:07:14.210,0:07:21.210 they are like family members. I go the quinceaneras. I help their kids go to college. It is a workforce 0:07:23.449,0:07:24.460 they are very familiar with. 0:07:24.460,0:07:27.210 [Chairman Issa] But I guess the question -- and this was one of the challenges we faced when 0:07:27.210,0:07:31.529 we try to deal with it from Washington is the kids -- are they going to work for you 0:07:31.529,0:07:32.589 after they get out of college? 0:07:32.589,0:07:33.419 [Mr. Murai] No. 0:07:33.419,0:07:38.089 [Chairman Issa] Where do you get your next generation of people to perform these jobs? 0:07:38.089,0:07:42.449 And that is really one of the challenges. 0:07:42.449,0:07:44.929 Sam came 20 years ago. I came 10 years ago. 0:07:44.929,0:07:51.729 What can the Federal Government give you in the way of relief that would take care of 0:07:51.729,0:07:58.559 this problem on an ongoing basis and not a one-time, as we did in 1986, that was fully 0:07:58.559,0:08:01.210 ready to be another one-time by the early 1990’s? 0:08:01.210,0:08:06.749 [Mr. Smith] It is not unlike the discussion we were having about environmental issues. 0:08:06.749,0:08:10.419 There is some science there, and there are some facts in the labor deal. 0:08:10.419,0:08:15.419 And I would disagree with Jim just a little bit and say that it is not that people in 0:08:15.419,0:08:21.279 our culture won’t do this job. It is that people in our economy don’t have to. And 0:08:21.279,0:08:28.279 so what drives people to come from Mexico or Central America to work in our agricultural 0:08:28.639,0:08:35.639 areas is the opportunity. It is economic. And that economic difference is science. I 0:08:37.089,0:08:39.469 mean, it is fact. It is not going to change. 0:08:39.469,0:08:46.469 Virtually 100 percent of my permanent employees are American citizens. They weren’t when 0:08:47.069,0:08:51.220 they got here. Their kids are going to college. They are not going to come back and be farm 0:08:51.220,0:08:58.220 workers. They have come to the land of opportunity. They have experienced the American dream, 0:08:58.899,0:09:04.519 and certainly not all of them but enough of them so that you continue to need to have 0:09:04.519,0:09:07.420 people who see that there is an economic opportunity. 0:09:07.420,0:09:13.440 AgJOBS -- I mean, the thing that fascinated me about that is you had the far right and 0:09:13.440,0:09:19.100 the far left and UFW and Farm Bureau in one room, just what Sam was saying. Bring everybody 0:09:19.100,0:09:26.050 into one room and work out something that everybody can live with. We haven’t. AgJOBS. 0:09:26.050,0:09:32.730 That to me is the kind of thing we have been trying to figure out all day about how to 0:09:32.730,0:09:39.329 do things with EPA, how to do things with government. We have a labor solution which 0:09:39.329,0:09:46.310 is a license to be here and go home and you contribute to the American economy. You support 0:09:46.310,0:09:50.860 our ag economy, and to a large degree, you don’t become a burden on it. 0:09:50.860,0:09:57.690 [Chairman Issa] If we were to have a bill that provided for a guest worker program that 0:09:57.690,0:10:02.600 came here, received, if you will -- and I use this word in parentheses -- prevailing 0:10:02.600,0:10:09.209 wage, because I want to leave that decision for later, could not remain here permanently, 0:10:09.209,0:10:15.670 must go home at least annually, must renew their ability to come back year after year, 0:10:15.670,0:10:22.670 and had no inherent pathway to citizenship in the basic bill, if Sam and I were to author 0:10:22.670,0:10:29.670 that as an AgJOBS bill with those basic provisions, what percentage of your problem would that 0:10:30.230,0:10:36.089 kind of a system take care of? 10 percent, 50 percent, 90 percent, 99 percent? 0:10:36.089,0:10:43.089 And we will presume for a moment that nobody has opted out of it. To a certain extent, 0:10:43.440,0:10:47.920 because this is one of my passions, if someone has been here under a broken system and they 0:10:47.920,0:10:51.600 are willing to go into a fixed system, we should not say, no, we got to go get some 0:10:51.600,0:10:55.300 third party that has never been here. So we will presume for a moment we are talking in 0:10:55.300,0:11:01.709 many cases about the same workforce that e-Verify stands looming in front of -- elimination. 0:11:01.709,0:11:03.149 Mr. Nassif? 0:11:03.149,0:11:07.779 [Mr. Nassif] As an old ag labor lawyer for many years and having -- 0:11:07.779,0:11:11.509 [Chairman Issa] I was just telling Sam you have been out being an ag labor lawyer for 0:11:11.509,0:11:13.190 a long time. Now you are pulling yourself back in. 0:11:13.190,0:11:18.459 [Mr. Nassif] I don't have any choice with this immigration reform with H2A, unfortunately, 0:11:18.459,0:11:20.949 and now Card Check here in California. 0:11:20.949,0:11:26.250 Certainly something like that would work for agriculture. The problem has always been how 0:11:26.250,0:11:32.790 do you get both sides of the aisle to agree on a solution. We got the UFW to agree on 0:11:32.790,0:11:37.500 AgJOBS or they got us to agree because we all gave a little bit. What the UFW wanted 0:11:37.500,0:11:41.290 was a pathway to citizenship, and what we wanted was some other protections because 0:11:41.290,0:11:46.319 we needed the workforce whether they had a path to citizenship or not. That is a completely 0:11:46.319,0:11:51.490 different and separate issue. But assuming that a bill like yours could pass, that would 0:11:51.490,0:11:54.240 solve most of our problems for our workforce. 0:11:54.240,0:11:58.160 But the thing we need to make sure everybody understands -- and I have been preaching this 0:11:58.160,0:12:05.160 for a long time -- is agriculture is for secure borders. We are for workplace enforcement. 0:12:06.279,0:12:13.279 We are for employer sanctions. We are for e-Verify. All we ask is that before you implement 0:12:15.160,0:12:21.810 something like e-Verify and the employer sanctions, you give us a basic method of bringing a legal 0:12:21.810,0:12:27.079 workforce to the United States. Whether that is a guest worker program, whether that is 0:12:27.079,0:12:31.029 AgJOBS, whether it is some permutation between those, it really doesn’t matter as long 0:12:31.029,0:12:32.449 as we have that. 0:12:32.449,0:12:39.250 But for the House of Representatives to push an eVerify bill for every industry with no 0:12:39.250,0:12:45.610 understanding or desire to understand that agriculture is completely different -- we 0:12:45.610,0:12:50.480 are only 10 percent of probably all the illegals in the country, and everybody thinks it is 0:12:50.480,0:12:56.589 all ag. Well, 90 percent of it is all these other industries that use these illegal laborers. 0:12:56.589,0:13:01.639 All ag wants to do is just to take into consideration the fact that we ask unemployed Americans 0:13:01.639,0:13:07.180 to do the work, and we don’t get any response from unemployed Americans. So the law provides 0:13:07.180,0:13:10.790 us the ability to go out and get foreign. 0:13:10.790,0:13:17.790 But then you take that law, the H2A, that we have and you have the Department of Labor, 0:13:18.290,0:13:22.740 which has no desire to see that a successful program and wants to make it as difficult 0:13:22.740,0:13:29.740 as possible for us to get these people who are refusing H2A applications in record numbers 0:13:32.209,0:13:37.449 and trying to make it expensive, then the only Federal solution we now we have doesn’t 0:13:37.449,0:13:44.449 work. And now we are looking at an e-Verify on a national basis that will destroy agriculture. 0:13:44.499,0:13:48.439 Our farmers will go abroad. There is no question about it. We are already doing that, going 0:13:48.439,0:13:52.290 to many foreign countries and producing. So all of that takes jobs away from this economy, 0:13:52.290,0:13:57.740 and instead of producing the multiplier effect of maybe two to three jobs for every farm 0:13:57.740,0:14:01.600 worker job in this country, they are going elsewhere and producing two to three jobs 0:14:01.600,0:14:03.689 in a foreign economy. Why would we want to do that? 0:14:03.689,0:14:06.350 [Mr. Farr] Can you follow up a little bit more on that? 0:14:06.350,0:14:07.540 [Mr. Nassif] Sure. 0:14:07.540,0:14:12.720 [Mr. Farr] As one of the growers said, there is no labor shortage in Mexico. 0:14:12.720,0:14:13.889 [Mr. Nassif] Right. 0:14:13.889,0:14:20.620 [Mr. Farr] So if I just go grow there, most of my problems are solved. And you are really 0:14:20.620,0:14:26.100 seeing a trend in this, more people investing particularly in northern Mexico? 0:14:26.100,0:14:33.100 [Mr. Nassif] I have a large avocado producing member, probably one of the largest in the 0:14:35.449,0:14:41.740 country, if not the largest, who said that 80 percent of his avocados were grown in California 0:14:41.740,0:14:47.639 and 20 percent abroad. And now 20 percent of them are grown in California and 80 percent 0:14:47.639,0:14:49.420 of them are grown abroad. 0:14:49.420,0:14:53.060 Now, this doesn’t mean that there aren’t problems trying to farm in Mexico because 0:14:53.060,0:14:57.709 they have labor problems too, labor unions, and families who will shut down a complete 0:14:57.709,0:15:03.069 operation if they have a wedding to go to, things you might not have happen on this side 0:15:03.069,0:15:03.459 of the border. 0:15:03.459,0:15:05.639 [Chairman Issa] I call that family values gone amuck. 0:15:05.639,0:15:06.060 [Laughter.] 0:15:06.060,0:15:10.910 [Mr. Nassif] That is called the family leave program, I guess. 0:15:10.910,0:15:14.149 But, yes, that is what is happening. There is no question. The transition is we are moving 0:15:14.149,0:15:19.189 more and more of our production out of the United States into foreign countries, which 0:15:19.189,0:15:21.519 means we are moving those jobs to the same places. 0:15:21.519,0:15:26.860 [Chairman Issa] Mr. Murai, I saw your head shaking yes. Would you say, putting it in 0:15:26.860,0:15:32.769 Ambassador Nassif’s way of saying it, reform H2A so that it works and you can do what you 0:15:32.769,0:15:34.449 need to do from the standpoint of labor? 0:15:34.449,0:15:37.550 [Mr. Nassif] I am not saying that. 0:15:37.550,0:15:41.439 [Chairman Issa] I mean, you said they gave you H2A and it doesn’t work. 0:15:41.439,0:15:46.370 [Mr. Nassif] It doesn’t work, but you see, H2A gives us about 2 percent. And I testified 0:15:46.370,0:15:50.350 at a committee hearing. It only gives us about 2 percent because it is so difficult and so 0:15:50.350,0:15:56.089 expensive and because of the requirement for housing. If you reformed H2A in a meaningful 0:15:56.089,0:16:03.089 way, it would still be difficult to get the workers because it is awfully difficult to 0:16:03.160,0:16:08.240 run all of those people through consulates in Mexico and to try and get all of that done 0:16:08.240,0:16:12.329 and get people here. There is a much simpler way to do it through a guest worker program. 0:16:12.329,0:16:19.329 And as you know, the union doesn’t want the H2A to work because if H2A really worked, 0:16:19.889,0:16:24.279 then they wouldn't get the AgJOBS which is what the union really wants, to bring these 0:16:24.279,0:16:25.480 people in and make them citizens. 0:16:25.480,0:16:31.399 [Chairman Issa] And I apologize for calling the H2A reform because maybe that is too much 0:16:31.399,0:16:36.100 of a stretch, but I was referring to what the Ambassador was saying. 0:16:36.100,0:16:39.740 [Mr. Murai] It is hard to believe you could reform that one enough. When we hear H2A, 0:16:39.740,0:16:40.300 we get -- 0:16:40.300,0:16:42.879 [Chairman Issa] You are so soured on it. 0:16:42.879,0:16:49.389 [Mr. Murai] Yes. It is pretty difficult to feel there is any way out with that one. It 0:16:49.389,0:16:56.389 is so onerous that many growers -- it takes so much expertise and for the return, for 0:16:56.649,0:17:03.649 the value, it is not worth engaging in. So we need a clear guest worker program. 0:17:03.660,0:17:07.820 You know, it is interesting. I traveled to Spain because Spain is another large strawberry-growing 0:17:07.820,0:17:14.820 area. In the past, you would go out to these fields and you would actually see -- no offense 0:17:17.929,0:17:23.530 -- but blonde-haired ladies picking strawberries everywhere, and it was just amazing to me. 0:17:23.530,0:17:30.530 I was like what is going on with this. And they go these ladies are from Poland or Romania. 0:17:31.190,0:17:37.660 And they had this guest worker program that brought in over 100,000 people a year to pick 0:17:37.660,0:17:40.920 strawberries. 0:17:40.920,0:17:45.250 The interesting thing, though -- I just had some Spanish visitors come visit me. With 0:17:45.250,0:17:49.370 the unemployment rate so high in Spain and especially in some of these towns, they say 0:17:49.370,0:17:54.780 up to 30 percent unemployment -- 15 to 30 percent unemployment -- things have changed 0:17:54.780,0:18:00.290 again. And the reason why it has changed is when Poland got admitted into the EU, now 0:18:00.290,0:18:05.620 there is a legitimate way for those ladies now to go into the northern European countries 0:18:05.620,0:18:08.820 and get jobs in different industries. 0:18:08.820,0:18:15.820 The strawberry picking has become not as desirable again, or the jobs have not become desirable 0:18:16.620,0:18:23.620 once you have had a program that allowed them free will to go wherever because they are 0:18:26.270,0:18:33.270 part of the European Community now. It took extreme unemployment, maybe 30 percent, for 0:18:33.420,0:18:40.420 people to actually start to filter back in to agree to start picking strawberries again. 0:18:41.820,0:18:46.460 For the Spanish guys that have relayed this to me, they go, wow, it took that much to 0:18:46.460,0:18:47.170 make it happen. 0:18:47.170,0:18:54.170 But it has to be specific and it has to be nimble. That is what was very inspiring to 0:18:55.970,0:19:01.910 me that some way they were able to put in a nimble program to be able to bring in the 0:19:01.910,0:19:08.910 guest workers to pick these perishable crops. We cannot engage in something that maybe you 0:19:09.840,0:19:16.840 are going to be having 30 to 40 people successfully apply and entered into a program in a couple 0:19:18.940,0:19:25.350 months. Agriculture doesn’t work that way. I mean, nature sets our deadlines, and when 0:19:25.350,0:19:30.420 we are going, we are going. And if you don’t, the crops are rotting in the field. So it 0:19:30.420,0:19:31.900 has to be a nimble program. 0:19:31.900,0:19:38.900 [Chairman Issa] The Europeans have kind of an interesting common sense one. They do essentially 0:19:39.420,0:19:45.520 have open borders as we do between the States. I think the difference in the European Union 0:19:45.520,0:19:52.520 with the new Eastern European members is you have essentially a Mexico economy that is 0:19:53.140,0:19:57.700 now part -- not completely but part of it. So there is a natural economic migration that 0:19:57.700,0:19:58.670 goes on. 0:19:58.670,0:20:03.530 And just like I think you said earlier, those people do not come to Spain, for the most 0:20:03.530,0:20:08.410 part, to stay in Spain or even to Ireland. They come in order to earn money. They save 0:20:08.410,0:20:13.780 at a higher rate. And they are part of why Eastern Europe is also seeing a huge amount 0:20:13.780,0:20:18.340 of investment with people that have earned money overseas and now are investing in their 0:20:18.340,0:20:20.180 home countries. 0:20:20.180,0:20:25.110 This is one of our problems. We have done a very good job in our 50 States. So there 0:20:25.110,0:20:31.370 is no such equivalent. Our equivalent is not part of the United States, but in fact Guatemala, 0:20:31.370,0:20:37.090 Mexico, Ecuador, a number of other countries and economic refugees that we all see on our 0:20:37.090,0:20:38.520 streets every day. 0:20:38.520,0:20:45.360 [Mr. Murai] Now you will see in Spain, if you travel there recently, the agricultural 0:20:45.360,0:20:51.860 workforce is made up of many migrants from northern Africa since the Eastern European 0:20:51.860,0:20:53.050 countries have joined the Community. 0:20:53.050,0:20:57.500 [Chairman Issa] Sam, other closing comments here? 0:20:57.500,0:21:04.500 [Mr. Farr] I think you are hearing a purpose of this hearing under your oversight and Government 0:21:04.560,0:21:11.560 reform is to look at what impedes job creation. And it is interesting. We started off on EPA 0:21:14.600,0:21:18.880 regulations and it ended up on immigration issues. 0:21:18.880,0:21:23.220 [Chairman Issa] That is why we did it last. You never get off once you start. 0:21:23.220,0:21:26.660 [Mr. Farr] But there is another message that we forgot to talk about here, and that is 0:21:26.660,0:21:33.660 what I am concerned about is these laws that we have created, not only we, the Federal 0:21:36.070,0:21:40.650 Government, and all of the regulatory process that comes out that, but the State government 0:21:40.650,0:21:47.650 and even local government. If we are going to just gut the EPA like mad, without being 0:21:47.870,0:21:54.040 careful about how you approach it -- and I know your party has been really -- the leadership 0:21:54.040,0:22:01.040 has been let’s sort of gut the EPA -- you are never going to be able to reach Ambassador 0:22:02.080,0:22:06.670 Nassif’s comment about having a consultative process because there won’t be anybody to 0:22:06.670,0:22:11.260 consult with. So the laws are going to be there, and who is going to win in this? The 0:22:11.260,0:22:16.120 lawyers in the suit because courts are going to enforce the law. You say, well, I went 0:22:16.120,0:22:19.720 to the agency and there was nobody there. The doors were locked. Nobody answered the 0:22:19.720,0:22:23.240 phone. I couldn't get my permit. 0:22:23.240,0:22:27.290 So that is why this process -- and you are having these oversight hearings -- has got 0:22:27.290,0:22:34.290 to look into this stuff. I hate bureaucracy. You know, you have to wait in line to get 0:22:35.470,0:22:42.470 an answer and you spend a whole day at it. But how do you reform it in a way that is 0:22:42.940,0:22:48.750 not a meat axe approach, that really gets to the bottom of the problem here? And I think 0:22:48.750,0:22:55.030 that you have heard that it is going to take some bold leadership to require -- I like 0:22:55.030,0:23:02.030 the idea of having maybe a one-stop in the Federal regulatory process. The EPA is the 0:23:02.570,0:23:05.900 one that you have suggested. That is its role, isn’t it? 0:23:05.900,0:23:12.080 And hopefully you and I can get some support to do this AgJOBS bill because I think it 0:23:12.080,0:23:19.080 is so crucial to the well-being of our community here. I expect that 70 percent of the workforce 0:23:20.280,0:23:26.120 here is not properly documented, but that is a workforce that also has kids in school. 0:23:26.120,0:23:29.780 That is a workforce that also spends their money in this community and tries to find 0:23:29.780,0:23:36.780 housing in this community. So it is a big social issue, and to have that much of your 0:23:36.940,0:23:42.200 workforce kind of living in a dark cloud of fear that at any moment you may be deported, 0:23:42.200,0:23:49.200 just is a bad way to operate a community and certainly a bad way to try to govern a complicated 0:23:50.160,0:23:52.740 agriculture practice, a labor-intensive practice. 0:23:52.740,0:23:57.230 So I appreciate having these hearings. I hope we can make some good out of it when we get 0:23:57.230,0:23:59.410 back to Washington. Thank you for inviting me. 0:23:59.410,0:24:00.770 [Chairman Issa] Thank you. Thanks a lot, Sam. 0:24:00.770,0:24:07.770 In closing, we are the “Oversight, space, space, and Reform Committee.” And although 0:24:09.100,0:24:14.490 our oversight includes a huge amount of investigations at any given time, probably 30 investigations 0:24:14.490,0:24:20.000 of misconduct, waste, fraud, and abuse in Government, it is in fact the reform portion 0:24:20.000,0:24:25.800 of our mandate that brought us here today. We wanted to listen to you about not only 0:24:25.800,0:24:32.250 problems you face, but also how you view the possibilities of reform. We are not here to 0:24:32.250,0:24:37.820 write legislation. Our committee has an interesting jurisdiction. We can look at it all. We can 0:24:37.820,0:24:43.460 write it all. We get what they call sequential referral, but in almost every case when we 0:24:43.460,0:24:48.800 do big reform, we are writing reform that a number of other committees have to process 0:24:48.800,0:24:49.230 through. 0:24:49.230,0:24:54.340 So I want to thank you all for your input. Your record you helped make here today is 0:24:54.340,0:24:59.580 part of how we make the justification for reforms we suggest that other committees write 0:24:59.580,0:25:05.280 or that, in fact, our committee initiates and then goes through the process. 0:25:05.280,0:25:11.790 I want to thank Congressman Farr because when it comes to finding an AgJOBS program that 0:25:11.790,0:25:18.630 works and getting through what is a somewhat failed process post EPA determining that it 0:25:18.630,0:25:24.720 must start, it has to be done with leaders like Congressman Farr. So I appreciate your 0:25:24.720,0:25:30.740 being here, and I feel very welcome. I will let your classmate and my wife know that we 0:25:30.740,0:25:32.880 had a good meeting together. 0:25:32.880,0:25:34.070 And this forum is adjourned. 0:25:34.070,0:25:35.830 [Whereupon, at 10:38 a.m., the committee was adjourned.]