

Case studies: Impact of the reduction of 10% of the schedule


Now that basically every team’s non-league schedule is finishing up this weekend, I felt it time to reflect on the (NYSPHSAA) decision to reduce the basketball schedule and look at its impact on the upcoming seeding in 30 days.  (Apologies to Section for thinking it was a section-level decision as it appears it was done statewide)

By now, my credentials have been chronicled. I am a huge fan of the game but I also spent several years as a coach at all levels. Since I have sat on both sides of the fence, I am going to try to pose this post from both angles.

With that in mind, I really hope that Section Two reinstates the two games next year. I personally feel that many of the big non-league rivalry games and tournaments were missed this year and it is going to make it very hard to seed people come sectional seeding time because, for example, in the case of the Patroon Conference no team played any non-league games so there is no relative comparison to make any assumptions whatsoever about that league.

Other leagues like the Colonial Council are short a team with the absence of Academy so they had several non-league games to play while others like the Big Ten could only play two.

In Class AA, fortunately, most of the top teams this year played Academy so as least we can determine where to put them but for virtually all of the other classes, there are severe ramifications to that decision in the impacting of the seeding of teams.

For the top class, CBA-Albany’s non-league games were both against Section 3 teams so comparing Shen and CBA will be difficult since Shen clearly will have a better record going into sectionals but no one can discount the fact that CBA plays a tougher schedule top to bottom.

Luckily they keep the two leagues apart for sectionals but in which league do you drop in Academy this season and who does that impact most?

In the case of the Suburban, the Girmindl tournament was perfect because it gave a talking point to compare leagues. This year the Big 10 prevailed over the Suburban.  That win will give most fans the opinion that they are the better league since two of the Big 10′s middle teams beat two of the top Suburban squads.  Other than that tournament, there really wasn’t other way to do it and that is what stinks because there used to be a dozen tournaments like the Girmindl.

In Class A, there is a messy comparison for seeding. For example one mess is in the Patroon. Where do you place Ichabod in the A’s? They will have zero Class AA or A wins. The major knock now will be how to compare the resume of Averill Park, Gibbons, Burnt Hills or Mohonasen who seemingly would also be undefeated in the Patroon with a resume like Ichabod’s?

Due to the decision to take two games away, we will never know the answer and the result of that decision will have major impacts on the seeding. For example if Averill Park and Lansingburgh have to meet in a 4/5 game this year when clearly they are two of the best teams. So if Ichabod is 18-0 where do you place them vs. a 12-6 AP team or even a 4-14 Gibbons team for example or compared to a Foothills representative like Scotia who could be 16-2 or 15-3 and played mostly all Class A teams?

In Class B, the Patroon is very well represented. For Catskill their record can be considered valid so in that class if Catskill is 12-6, that result should be used. In this case, the Patroon results are usable. However, Schuylerville and Granville do not play top B teams in their league so many people criticize the Wasaren. (although it a great league) Luckily Schuylerville played a powerhouse non-league schedule and can look at wins over Cohoes and Broadalbin to validate their place in the B’s.  Granville played a much weaker non-league schedule.

Fonda plays no games against B teams besides Spa Catholic. Every other game is down in classification. How do you factor 14 of their games that are down in class? I am glad for them that they played Johnstown and Gloversville non-league so at least you have some basis of comparison to justify their #1 ranking.

In Class C, Maple Hill plays four games and Voorheesville plays no games in their class. If Voorheesville goes into sectionals with say a 15-3 record with all games against larger classifications and all of their losses are to those A and B schools how does that factor vs. Hoosick Falls who plays more C games or Maple Hill?

Finally in Class D, Sharon Springs plays a jam-packed WAC schedule of games and their non-league games were crossovers vs. other WAC teams so they virtually no basis of comparison to any Adirondack or CHVL D teams.

I say you have to reward Sharon over Argyle because Sharon plays all C or B teams all season and even if they finish 14-4, that would be a better resume than Argyle finishing 15-3 playing mostly Adirondack games.

Luckily, Argyle faced New Lebanon so you have at least a small basis of comparison there.

So, with those case studies in mind, I am wondering:

1. What people’s feelings are on the reduction of the schedule

2. How do you think it will impact league comparisons and strengths of schedule?

3. Which teams are the most positively or negatively affected?

4. If it was purely economics, why did football keep the status quo but soccer and basketball had to cut?

Categories: General
Eric Medved

26 Responses

  1. gloversville fan says:

    im hoping they go back to 20 games next year it was wierd not seeing burnt hills in the gloversville tournamnet and for players its always fun to play teams you dont normally see instead of seeing teams you see twice a season like teams in the patroon who could not have any non league game so hopefully they return to 20 games next year and basically the only league that will be affected will be colonial since both fonda and ichabod crane join them (i think its nextyear). as for league comparisons and strengths of schedule im not a really big fan of that to determine seedings for sectionals. i would just seed them by records regardless of league lets face it anyone can win on any giving night no matter what seed you still play to win the sectionals. my junior i believe year we were a #1 seed and we lost to #16 seed in cohoes at home a team a few nights earlier played in a play in game. a couple years earlier gloversville had beaten gibbons who had chalmers, hameed and a few other excellent players but then lost to schalmont with then osinski brothers.. didnt ichabod crane beat scotia a couple years back? so my opinion is i guess it does not matter on league

    as for the teams affected i think its the teams who have been in tournament for years and years who could not compete this year.. i think the reason why football did not get cut is because they only play 9 games anyways

  2. Just pointing it out says:

    Fonda also has a Home and Home with Broadalbin. It just gives them 2 more B games to their weak schedule of the WAC

  3. vermont says:

    Fonda will be challenged in the WAC tournament by the top of the south.

  4. RM says:


    It was the state that enacted these cuts to “try to help school schools trim cost in athletic budgets,” not Section 2. I think the people in Section 2 have more common sense than the NYSPHSAA folks. You can find exactly what they did for all sports scheduling here:

    Scheduling is addressed in #5. I really don’t follow high school football, so to me the wording of their football game cuts seems confusing, but there is one there.

    Here is my outlook on the situation. I understand the NYSPHSAA trying to cut expenses, but maybe they should focus on their own expenses and let the schools deal with their own. Here is my suggestion for the NYSPHSAA: I have been to track, wrestling and cross country state championships in the past several years. At the 2009 cross country state championships there were 597 boys competing and 598 girls competing, for a total of 1,195 kids running. Not a single of these runners was permitted to run in their own school’s jersey, the one they had worn all season to compete. They were each provided with a state championship t-shirt to wear by the NYSPHSAA. The reasoning behind this is that they give each section a color, so not only are they competing for individual and team state championships, but they are competing as sections as well. To me this seems a bit ridiculous. They can still be scored as Sections without buying every single one of them a different color shirt. Wrestling is also the same way, with each wrestler being provided with a new singlet they get to keep. I’m sure they get a great deal on the pricing of these shirts and singlets…but not spending any money on them is an even better deal. These kids are excited to be participating in state championships, and them having to put up $10 to buy their own shirt really won’t ruin their experiences, because this could be the only time many of them reach this milestone. It just confuses me how the NYSPHSAA, with so much waste in their spending, feels that it is in a great position to advise the schools to trim their budget.

  5. Kevin says:

    Seconding RM’s comment…this decision was made by the NYSPHSAA, not Section 2. I also agree that the decision should be left up to the individual schools, as I do not see the rationale behind mandating that schools reduce opportunities for their students.

  6. Kevin says:

    To answer your other questions…I feel that this new system will slightly benefit teams in smaller-school leagues than larger ones, because my personal opinion is that the seeding committees tend to reward gaudy records slightly more than they should compared to schedule strength; however, this isn’t a major difference.

    As for the last question…the NYSPHSAA officially lowered the number of games that non-playoff teams can play from ten to nine, which was a rule that Section 2 already had in place. The exception is that teams can apply for a tenth game in cases such as an annual rivalry game; I think a couple Section 2 teams had these games with each other earlier in the decade but they have since disappeared. I don’t know for sure how this reduction affected football in other sections, but I don’t believe many other sections commonly had 10-game schedules either. If you believe football was spared, the obvious answer is that football games are, I would imagine, the biggest revenue-producers for high school athletic departments.

  7. Just pointing it out says:

    Yeah, I think Fonda will have to fight to win the WAC tourney this year…. They will have to really work to get to the championship

  8. mike says:

    idk about fonda fighting to win the wac tournament, come one the best two teams down there either gonna be sharon springs ,scoharie,canajoharie and maybe schenectady christain i dont think fonda will be challenged in the wac crossovers this year

  9. alittleintheknow says:

    The reason that all schools were mandated to cut two games was so that some schools who had the money were not able to keep up their schedule while others who did not were forced to play less games. Saying that it still does not make sense and just reeks of playing politics. What are the savings by cutting two games? The coach is payed the same, the uniform cost is the same, the gym lights and heat are still on since I’m sure the teams are still practicing that evening. The season wasn’t shortened at all in terms of length. The cost is literally officials and a bus ride and since many schools charge a couple of dollars admission I’m sure most of that is covered.


  10. sportsimitatelife says:

    With the budget cuts that were made across NYS the last couple of years impacting Academic programs, the decision by NYSPHSAA to cut games, was motivated entirely by visibility issues, not grounded in sound fiscal accountability. Gary Vanderzee, the football coach at Ravena, stated this fact very well. Also, since there are only a few income producing sports at many schools, it can be argued that the reduction in games actually cost schools an opportunity to make a few dollars. Wasn’t there a recent NYSPHSAA vote to reinstate the reduction in games that was defeated ? I had heard that Section 2 had voted in favor to reinstate, but other sections in NYS didn’t.

  11. Scho. Cty. League says:

    Time for Fonda to move on to a comparable league. They remind me of the 14 year old sixth grade bully on the playground.

  12. Eric Medved says:

    Fonda is moving to the Colonial Council. The league will feature:

    Ichabod Crane (A), Lansingburgh (A), Ravena (small A), Schalmont (small A), Cohoes (big B), Fonda (big B), Cobleskill (big B), Watervliet (small B), Mechanicville (small B), Voorheesville (big C)

    I would say that league will now be in good shape and already plays the Foothills in the All-Star game. The leagues will be very comparable now (if they weren’t already) What’s nice is there are some local rivalry games: East – Ichabod, Lansingburgh, Ravena, Cohoes, Watervliet, Mechanicville and West – Fonda, Cobleskill, Schalmont, Voorheesville.

  13. apsupporter says:

    If Ap goes 12-6 they should be either a 1 or 2 seed, without question…they would have 12 wins versus all a and aa teams. You have to look at Queensbury who beat Scotia and Gloversville but lost to Ballston Spa who lost to AP and Burnt Hills.

  14. Eric Medved says:

    #13 – Are we talking about what should happen or what will happen?

    If AP is 12-6 I don’t see them dropping into a 1 or 2 seed if past practice is the example. I think the winner of South High/Scotia II gets the #1 seed if one of them goes 7-0 in the second of the Foothills schedule. Ichabod gets the #2 seed if they win out for sure and may get the #1 like they did in 2008 when they were in Class B.

    Then, it will be either Burgh or Averill Park at #3 unless Burgh wins out in which case they will get the #2.

    If AP wins out and finished 13-5 or 12-6 then they should be in the #4 spot or better but I just don’t know if the committee will give them anything better than a #4 if the other teams are 18-0, 16-2 and 15-3. Not fair but the way it usually is.

  15. section 2 says:

    how can AP not get a 1 seed they have more a and aa wins then ichabod and what big name schools have ichabod beat. all pending on if AP ends up 13-5 or 12-6. i know for a fact that if you put ichabod up against teams AP plays they would have there hands full.

  16. Kevin says:

    It’s worth remembering that in 2006-07, back when Ichabod was in Class A and had Austin-Michaud, they went 18-2 (17-1 in the league), yet got just the #4-seed, one spot behind 11-9 Averill Park – despite having defeated the Warriors in OT earlier that year. Now, a lot of things are different this season – 18-0 would be much different than 18-2, AP that year was just coming off a sectional title, and the Suburban was stronger that year (depth-wise, at least). But – and I say this as someone who has often felt that the committee values overall records too highly – strength of schedule is certainly a major factor in seedings, particularly regarding Class A and the Patroon Conference. In other words, I’d give a 13-5 AP a reasonable shot at being ranked ahead of even an 18-0 Ichabod, and certainly a 17-1 ICC.

  17. HoosierDaddy says:

    Why is there always the general assumption that all A schools are better than all B and C schools in basketball?

    Eric writes in his article that, “The major knock now will be how to compare the resume of Averill Park, Gibbons, Burnt Hills or Mohonasen who seemingly would also be undefeated in the Patroon with a resume like Ichabod’s?”

    All these A teams Eric mentions are a given to beat the likes of Maple Hill, Renssselaer, Catskill, or even Hudson just because they are A schools? I’m not buying that.

    I get the argument about where to seed ICC when they have not played any A or AA schools but I always have a problem assuming that teams are automatically better because they play in a higher class. That may be true in football but not always in basketball.

  18. Eric Medved says:

    I have always tried to balance this but usually a Gibbons, AP or BH will beat a Colonial or Patroon A. My exception is the Foothills. They usually do well. Burgh rarely makes it out of the 1st round

  19. Joseph says:

    Where the cuts really hurt was at Burnt Hills, which eliminated an entire level of sports at the school In my mind it did not save all that much money in the overall relm of the school budget and overall taxes but it did hurt hundreds of kids trying out for freshman or modified sports so all of our sports now have three levels: Varsity, JV and Freshman OR Modified. This will eventually catch up to the school, hopfully after my kids have graduated…We already have teh smallest sports budget in the Suburban Council and it continues to dwindle away. Oh well, that is what happens whin you don’t live in a sports minded community like Amsterdam, Glvoersville, Johnstown or others which support thier sports teams NO MATTER WHAT!!!

  20. bballfan says:

    Fonda will definitely be more challenged in the Colonial. They have been trying to move for the past three years. Would have been good to see them go this year when they are having such a good year with an experienced team…….

  21. apfan11 says:

    Why would an IC crane team be seeded before AP. If everyone remembers last year a 3-17 ap beat a 15-5 IC at IC’s home court. The Strength of the Suberban Conference is much greater than what IC plays in which has them getting wins against weak class b teams

  22. WAC Fan says:

    i agree bball fan. this year would have been a great challenge for Fonda in the Colonial, I think they would have probably won the Colonial. They are losing so much though, next year is going to be very tough for them.

  23. Just pointing it out says:

    Fonda win the Colonial??? I don’t think so. Would they compete this year? definitely…. I think in the end they might have been 4th, maybe 3rd….. I do think they will beat Watervliet in the B finals this year…..

  24. WAC Fan says:

    So your saying that Voorheesville, Lansingburgh would both beat Fonda and maybe Watervliet too. from what i have seen i think Fonda is the strongest of the group. I dont think that Voorheesville would be able to beat Fonda. They are very deep group of seniors. They may not go undefeated but think they would win the Colonial.

  25. Eric Medved says:

    Good dialogue here. Hard to compare this year but since Fonda beat two of the middle Foothills teams close, the comparison becomes which is a better league because you would think a top Colonial could compete with a middle Foothills squad. I say Fonda would be right in the mix for the Colonial title and would be capable of competing against Voorheesville because they can matchup well with Mackey and they have the depth and athletes to match Watervliet or Lansingburgh’s.

  26. just poointing it out says:

    I think they could contend, but just dont believe they would get it done. They may be seniors, but have they truly been tested this year…. I don’t think Broadalbin, Gloversville or Johnstown would fair well this year against those 3 of the Colonial. And Fonda definitely isnt tested in the WAC.. 30 point win over Northvile and Galway doesn’t show me anything……