Updated system guide

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    The latest edition of the often debated, but highly anticipated Ars Technica System Guide is now available. We've designed systems that cover three price categories to suit different buyers' needs, from the economical Budget Box, to the bang for the buck Hot Rod, and the drool-worthy God Box. Computing power continues to become cheaper and cheaper, and our system recommendations reflect those trends. Whether you're in the market for a new system, looking to upgrade a few components, or just curious as to what's new, check out the guides, and feel free to offer your feedback.

    [This message was edited by Yaz on April 10, 2003 at 02:09.]
    One Q about the budget box... has anyone actually run PC2700 RAM succesfully in the A7N266-VM motherboard? I had massive stability problems with several sticks of PC2700, but all the PC2100 I've used works flawlessly.
    I've run PC2700 in one or two A7N266-VM's without problems. Micron and Samsung chips on 3rd party PCBs.

    However, I've built quite a few other A7N266-VM boxes, and to be honest most used PC2100... I never had the opportunity to try PC2700 on them. PC2700 prices are awfully close to PC2100 prices today though, which is why the recommendation was changed.
    Dual Xeons? Is there an actual point to that, or is it just bragging rights. I know it's the God Box, but why spend money if you can't put a finger on the reason why? I could put together an even more expensive system if I wanted, but we are way past the point of diminishing returns here.
    Originally posted by hashde:

    I've always wondered the same thing. In fact I seem to recall discussing this with some of the other Ars Staff members. (altho, I can't remember the outcome.)

    I guess what's always bothered me was that the price range goes from ~$750 to ~$1500, then makes this crazy jump to $10,000!!!!

    Yeah, I guess the God-box is just for kicks, but I think we should have a "demi-god" box in the ~$2250 range. ($750 increments.)

    Hmmm... Anyone else like this idea?
    crucial suX0rZ.

    My experience has been very stable error free memory....

    Of the few dozen sticks of memory I have purchased from them over the years, the one time I had to return a stick, it was no hassle whatsoever.

    Some people value purchasing from a company that will stand behind there products, not because you can clock it 10% past its specifications.
    Yes, quite a few here would rather see something else in the Budget Box and Hot Rod, but ultimately that wasn't my call. *shrug* Who's to know what the Ars staff thinks. Smile


    People always complain about that, too... but it just seems to work well for our audience. We don't see a particular need for a box in-between, although personally I'd just build a Hot Rod with a faster processor, 18" LCD, and load it with 15K SCSI myself.

    Honestly, just modify the Hot Rod spec. We won't feel bad. Smile

    And... yes... the God Box IS mostly for kicks. People don't like the thought of a $10k x86 box don't have to build one. Heck, most of our readers get a kick out of it... and most of 'em will never build our God Box, either. Heck, I doubt my current car is worth as much as the God Box!
    I have a God box! Wink Dual 2600 Athlon MPs instead of Xeons, and an MSI MPX mobo. The rest is pretty close to the Ars God box. Cool
    1920x1440 on a 17" monitor (budget box) is not a sight I'd care to see :-)

    Specs seem to indicate that it will do 1600x1200 at an unknown resolution.
    Maybe look into a combo CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive in the future? I know a few people have recommended the Samsung 348 (IIRC), noting how quiet it was. It's $80 or less--$67 during one of Dell's sales, tho I don't see it listed on their site anymore.
    Godbox backup - still don't quite see why Ars is so wedded to the Exabyte VXA-2, when they could get Sony's AIT-3. 100GB native capacity, nice small reliable tapes - what's not to like?
    continuum: So is $1500 supposed to the upper limit of what we think users will spend? I've seen several requests on the boards for $2200-3000 recommendations. That's what it takes to get a mostly decked-out machine from an OEM. Why not show em what they can get if they go DIY?

    Edit: Does anyone else think they should be ordered (left to right) cheapest to most expensive, rather than the reverse, which is the current arrangement?
    We don't recommend combo drives because we don't need for them. I can count the number of times that my old roommates and I used the DVD abilities of our computers (all four of us had at least 1 DVD drive) on one hand.

    A combo drive as a mention might not be a bad idea, though. Considering I've picked up 52x CD-RW's for $10 from Best Buy and 16x DVD-ROM's from CompUSA for $20 though... people should also consider browsing sales. Smile

    We don't list the Sony SDX-700C (AIT-3 internal) because it's bloody expensive. Pricewatch shows $2294 and $2674 cheapest, and the $2294 is only a 90-day warranty.

    Previous discussion about storage in the Other Hardware forum didn't turn up any arguements for AIT-2 or AIT-3. At a $15k or $20k price range, $2600 for AIT-3 is easier to stomach... but in the $8k~11k price range like now, $2600 is much more difficul to justify.


    It's represenative of the price range for users looking to build a Hot Rod, and it appears to be the largest majority. My own experience may not be reflective of Ars staff, but as a system integrator for many friends and friends of friends, 98% of the systems I build or source parts for are under $1800- slightly higher than the standard Ars price range for the Hot Rod, but close enough.


    We read the same requests and get others. When demand for such a system is large enough, and the Ars staff believes it's time to expand the System Guide, we will do so. There has to be a point, an intented audience for such a recommendation, and the recommendation itself has to be appropriate. e.g. It's why the Hot Rod has not gone dual processor; it's just not appropriate. People who want to see a $3k recommendation should include a reason or goal behind their opinions, so we can see what they think, more than just want they want.

    I am not aware of any current plan to expand the scope of the System Guide at the moment. That said, I am also known to be kept unknowingly in the dark...

    [This message was edited by continuum on April 10, 2003 at 05:12.]
    I have a Dell 2000FP and I must say it kicks butt! The playback of DVDs on it is nothing short of amazing. Smile
    Crucial memory for budget box ram?

    Why not Kingston's HyperX PC2700, only $48.00. crucial suX0rZ.

    Lite-on cdrw?

    Geez, i would want a cdrw that last more than 4 months.:-/
    i had one, it croaked and i RMA'd it, the second one croaked too.
    I wouldn't get one.I'd rather shop at wal-mart.

    You're knocking Crucial RAM and Lite-On optical drives?

    I wouldn't have a problem if you suggested Mushkin or Corsair over Crucial (although they are usually a lot more expensive), but Kingston? And what brand of optical drives do you prefer? Optorite? BenQ?? About the only brand of optical drives more highly recommended than Lite-On around here is Plextor.
    woohoo! thanks again for all the hard work (both from the Ars staff and the Fora contributors)
    Originally posted by Anonymous:
    Ars currently has variations along one axis: Price. I'd like to see variations along another axis: Purpose. Start with three points: Desktop, Server, HTPC.

    Yah, something to this effect (small formfactor categories and whatnot) were suggested in the forum threads on this but the Ars higher ups said they don't want to do anything new (at least not this time), so oh well...
    Am I missing something. Doesn't the motherboard in the God Box already have gigabit ethernet?

    From Supermicro's spec page:

    * Intel 82545EM Gigabit Ethernet controller

    Crucial Memory & Lite-On Drives: Both of these are recommended time and again by forum members with lots of real-life experience with these products. When I built my new rig last summer, I took these recommendations from forum-goers to heart and put in both Crucial Memory and a Lite-On CD-RW drive. I have not had any complaints about either, so in my opinion these remain good recommendations. I'm sure this won't come as a surprise to most who frequent the technical sections of the Openforum.

    Price vs. Purpose: I can understand the hesitation to change the format of the system guide. It'll take a lot of work, and a definite change in the modus operandi, and still it's not 100% clear-cut that the current way of doing the system guide is bad.

    FWIW, I think the current way of going about it is just fine. People complain about the unreality of the God Box, but it's really there just to be silly and fantasize a bit. This is because, in my opinion, the Hot Rod really serves well as a "base" spec for a high-performance but real-life machine that can then be modified to suit a purpose. The recent record of giving different recommendations on video cards for different purposes, for instance, shows this. Likewise, the Budget Box provides a good base for building a price-conscious, entry-level system.

    Anyway, good job again, thanks for all the hard work. Big Grin
    Quick God Box note --

    Why bother with Ultra320 SCSI drives if you're plugging them into an Ultra160 card?

    The dual-channel ULtra320 (39320) card from Adaptec is a 64bit/133Mhz PCI-X card, and can be had for only $100 more (give or take). Being that the Supermicro board has a 64/133 slot, don't you think it would be worthwhile to include the faster board?
    That was a fun read. I think I'm going to build something akin to a Hot Box over the summer. *Drool*
    Why are we adding a nic to the god box? Is there somethign wrong with the onboard Intel 10/100/1000 nic? I noticed this with the last eddition too.

    I didn't think adapter teaming worked accross brands, but it wouldnt be the first time I was wrong.
    Originally posted by Quizzikal:

    Stay away from the Western Digital 80 GB special editions if you don't like noise.

    I just RMA-ed mine and ordered a Seagate Barracuda V. I'm willing to take the slight performance hit, for peace and quiet.
    Can we get a DSL Router/Cable Modem reccomendation, we have a 56k modem suggestion, why not a broadband solution?
    You can please most of the people some of the time, some of the people most of the time, but never all the people all of the time. And if your really good you can just piss everyone off.

    Once again an EXCELLENT system guide. Thanks a lot!
    Wudan Master, they cannot recommend a DSL router because they are different depending on your phone company. External hardware solutions are almost always going to be better than internal software ones. (Cisco 678 vs Intel 2500 series for example, but thats in Minnesota)

    I'd just like to say, that for the first time in a couple years, Im finally able to keep up with the hotrod again. woot woot!
    Originally posted by JDawg:
    I have a memory question. If one is considering overclocking an air-cooled 333MHz chip, how far about PC2700 does one go? Is PC3200 the right point or is PC3500?

    Also, does anyone have experience with OCing with dual channel DDR. Is it worth the expense of going for a LL matched pair (Crucial or OCZ) rather than picking up 2 individual LL chips? How likely is one to be able to run agressive timings without a matched pair?

    If you plan to overclock, spending the money on high rated ram is well worth it, not only because of the headroom it offers, but because of the reliability the ram should have. It makes it far easier to decided what's dying when you push the ysstem too far.

    That said, there is no different between buying the LL style 'Twinx' bundles vs buying the LL sticks alone. I will note, however, that some stores sell the Twinx bundles cheaper than they would sharge for 2 sticks otherwise. There is no harm in buying the bundles in any case.
    Quizikal, I have had my Lite-On 40x for over 8 months now, purchased it from Newegg.com and haven't had any problems.
    I'm surprised the hot rod didn't feature the nforce2 soundstorm audio as a solution. While the ALC650 DAC used on most nforce2 boards blows at signal to noise ratio and has poor fidelity, if you have a set of speakers that can do AC-3 (Creative DTT3500, Inpire 5100, logitechs Z-680, etc) it is very, very nice as a solution.

    It should be mentioned at least, that if you have an external AC-3 decoder of some sort, soundstorm is the way to go.
    This is awesome, I ordered basically the same stuff as your Hot Rod box last week, it should all show up any day now! Same MB, proc, burner, hard drive and memory (though I went DDR3200 2x256). Kind of validating, or, could it be that you've been watching me! Eek

    no god box should be free of one of these


    but they should make DDR and PCI-X models for some serious output...

    or you could load up a full 12 gigs of ram.. and ramdisk it somehow... that would be sweet!!
    Once again, nice system guide.

    Just curious, but I was wondering why XP Pro, and not XP Home, particularly for the budget box?

    It'll save about $30-$40, which is enough to get a processor upgrade or possibly a nice game. Or a lot of $0.89 tacos.

    I run XP Pro at work and XP Home on two machines at home, and I don't miss the Pro features at home. In particular, given the specs of the Hot Rod and Budget Box, you'll never need the SMP capabilities. While the encrypted file system is nice, I'm not sure how many people really need it at home.

    So, what features seem compelling enough to recommend Pro over Home, without mentioning Home as an option? Because, if they're compelling enough, I may have to upgrade. Smile

    Anybody else using Home and not feeling like they've missed out, or visa versa?

    I have been waiting on a HotRod update!
    as I was researhing for a new system myself

    Now, I am undecided between the
    [Epox EP-8RDA+ & Athlon XP 2500+] combo

    and my original pick:
    MSI 655 Max-LS SiS 655 [$110]
    P42.4 [$163 w/HeatSink & fan] - comparitive price
    The 533MHz FSB should pair even better with dual channel DRR

    What I really need a "shootout" article from
    tomshardware/ anandtech/ explosive labs ?!

    or, .. extrapolating from

    !! asking YOU guys !!
    Isn't the P4 2.66ghz or 2.4ghz the better buy vs. AMD these days? Especially since Intel chipsets are generally more stable. The price difference now is minimal at best.
    As much as I need to build a new game box, I'm just going to wait until Intel and AMD release their new socket designs I read about a few weeks ago. That's what around Xmas time roughly? I might as well get something with some for of an upgrade path. Smile Not like I did when I got my 200MMX and my P3-1GHx... Frown
    Great guide as always.
    Just a few quick points on the God Box:

    Video: Why not swing for the AIW model? It's a God Box - VI/VO and TV tuner functionality can't hurt.

    Sound: As much as I don't like Creative - The Audigy 2 Platinum is a better gaming card (overall). It has 6.1 support, EAX2, and that nifty drive bay rack with all the connections and a remote. I have TBSC and love it, but it's mostly Hot Rod material IMHO.

    Speakers: Most reviews seem to prefer the Logitech Z-680s. As sound quality is at least as good and they have a built-in Dolby Digital, DTS 5.1, and Dolby Pro Logic II decoders. This'll let you also use it with a DVD, CD player, PS2, Xbox, etc...

    I'd also love an HTPC recommendation.

    Keep up the good work!
    Why no RAID in the GodBox?

    It's prohibitively expensive. The Mylex AcceleRAID controller we used in the October 2002 update is $1400. User feedback indicates a pricerange of $8k~11k is about right, putting a real SCSI RAID out of reach.

    The Other Hardware forum members would hang us if we put an IDE RAID in the God Box. Well they'd have ME, anyway.

    No Audigy 2 in the God Box:
    Now the Audio/Visual forum members would hang us, err, me, for putting one in the God Box...

    Logitech Z-680's: We'll solict them as as recommendation the next time around. People didn't ask for any speaker updates this time and we weren't too inclined to look ourselves.

    DSL/cable modem suggestions are impractical at best, as they're provider-specific much too often.

    Win98SE 512MB memory limit... yes, we've known about it for quite a long time.

    XP Home vs. XP Pro in the Budget Box. Well, maybe we'll ask the NT Mojo forum guys for their opinions the next time. OS recommendations are admittedly another area we haven't touched often.

    Intel vs. AMD in the Hot Rod... we swang back towards AMD a few months ago, but so far this year we're about 50/50 AMD XP vs. Intel P4/533mhz FSB. Who knows how it will turn up the next update.
    One minor issue for the god and hotrod boxen, Im usin a logitech MX700 and I feel that it blows a microsoft explorer mouse out of the water on every level. Thats it form me MAG out. Smile
    Thanks for yet another good read on the technology that is available for enthusiasts everywhere.

    I get plenty of ideas, with the only 'roll-eyes' comments coming from me wife. Wink
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