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Expert: Evidence Supports Zimmerman; Was Trayvon Martin Case Mishandled?; Cleveland Kidnapping Victims Speak

Aired July 9, 2013 - 19:00   ET


ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: "OUTFRONT" next, a big day in the Zimmerman case. We're going to have a full report. Our analysts and court watchers are standing by. Plus, a forensic expert took the stand today. We're going to tell you what he said about how Martin was positioned when he was shot. That crucial question of who was on top?

And then just a short time ago, the NTSB held a news conference on the deadly 777 crash in San Francisco. What they learned about the final seconds before that crash landing.

Plus an OUTFRONT investigation, did cultural factors play a role in the horrific accident?

And a runaway train that exploded and has killed dozens, did someone release the brakes? Let's go OUTFRONT.

And good evening, everyone. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, is the Zimmerman case finally case closed? So George Zimmerman's lawyer said today that he's done. He's resting his case tomorrow. I mean, some people thought this trial would go on and on, but it has been anything but that.

And there is a good chance that George Zimmerman will never take the stand in his own defense. Now this could be why. A noted pathologist took the stand today and said that according to how he has looked at the evidence it supports Zimmerman's account of the night Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.


DR. VINCENT DI MAIO, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: It's my opinion that the muzzle of the gun in this case was two to four inches away from the skin. So the barrel of the gun was against the clothing, the muzzle of the gun was against the clothing, but the clothing itself had to be two to four inches away from the body at the time Mr. Martin was shot. This is consistent with Mr. Zimmerman's account. That he, that Mr. Martin, was over him leaning forward at the time he was shot.


BURNETT: Obviously, if you're leaning forward the implication that you're on top because the clothes are hanging away from your body. So does this mean the state can't get a conviction? OUTFRONT tonight, our legal analysts, Mark Nejame, Sunny Hostin and Paul Callan. Great to have all of you with us.

I want to start with you, Mark. Dr. Di Maio has some pretty impressive credentials. People say pathologist, aren't there a lot of them? How do we know this guy is legit, the guy? He has 40 years of experience. He served as the chief medical examiner in San Antonio and he was the former editor in chief of the "Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology." So he's got an impressive resume. How significant was his testimony?

MARK NEJAME, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He knocked it out of the park and I think anybody who observed him and listened to him knows that. He literally wrote the book. The book is called "Forensic Pathology." He wrote the book called "Forensic Pathology." His expertise is second to none. When you contrast it, the two MEs the state called, I'm sorry, you have polar extremes in the way that you present and the information that was given.

You can completely eliminate George Zimmerman's testimony. Let's just presume he is the most untruthful person in the face of the planet. Let's eliminate all the testimony from all other witnesses. Here you have scientific, really uncontroverted evidence that is going to simply say what happened, and he simply explained it was George Zimmerman on the bottom and Trayvon Martin on the top. You can't doubt that.

BURNETT: And he did do that and according to everyone that's been talking about it, seemed very effectively. Sunny, let me ask you though, because the state worked very hard to discredit him, to neutralize him, to find some holes in what he was saying about Trayvon Martin being on top. And I wanted to play you a little bit of the cross-examination where they tried to do that.


BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, LEAD PROSECUTOR: So you're saying that Trayvon Martin had to physically be on top, like this?

DI MAIO: I'm saying that the physical evidence is consistent with Mr. Martin being over Mr. Zimmerman.

RIONDA: And is it not also consistent with Mr. Martin pulling away from Zimmerman on the ground, and would you have the same angle he's pulling away and Zimmerman shooting him at that time?



BURNETT: So, Sunny, obviously the state trying to set up a scenario that would have been sympathetic to Trayvon Martin's, his side of things, as opposed to George Zimmerman's. Did the state effectively put holes in what the forensic expert was saying?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, I mean, I think the state was effective. I was in his courtroom for his testimony. He had this jury at hello. He is the world renowned expert in his field and so you can't attack his credibility -- his credentials, but you can poke holes in his version of what he believes to have happened. I believe the state was successful in doing that.

But all in all he was a great witness for the defense, and I think that he was -- that's why he was called by the defense because the defense in had this case is all about self-defense. I think the prosecution did a great job coming out of the gate asking him, but you're not testifying about who threw the first punch.

You're not testifying about who started all of this and that's what the prosecution's narrative needs to be. It needs to be about George Zimmerman pursuing, following, being the first aggressor and I think they got that out of this witness.

BURNETT: Which is obviously crucial to this whole issue of second- degree murder. Paul Callan, do you think the success of Dr. Di Maio that both Sunny and Mark were talking about, led to why Mark O'Mara saying, look, I'm done. I don't need to bring others it to the stand. Do you think that's why he made that decision? More a last-minute decision or do you know coming into today I'm done?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Usually the defense attorneys have something in reserve if they think they have to extend the case a bit. But frankly, I think a lot of attorneys that I know who are watching the case think that the case has been shredded. The prosecution's case has been shredded by the defense. Now you have this forensic evidence that lines up pretty much perfectly with the Zimmerman story.

There were some good cross by prosecutors. There were elements that line up with the prosecutor's story as well. They needed a knockout punch forensically, the prosecutors, to show that Zimmerman's story was an impossibility given the physical evidence and, frankly, they didn't get that knockout punch in the cross-examination of this very impressive forensic pathologist.

BURNETT: And I wanted to play one other thing that the forensic pathologist said, Mark, and this was about this issue of Trayvon Martin and where his hands were. Zimmerman has claimed that he placed Trayvon Martin's arms to the side after he had shot him, but Trayvon Martin, of course, was found, police at least say, with his hands under his body. How did that happen? When did that happen?

The defense said Martin moved his own hands. There's been some confusion. The prosecution's expert said Martin would have been incapacitated immediately, that he wouldn't have been able to move his hand or do anything after he was shot. Dr. Di Maio came on, the expert, and said something totally different. Here is his version.


DI MAIO: If I right now reached across, put my hand through your chest, grabbed your heart and ripped it out, you could stand there and talk to me for 10 to 15 second or walk over to me because the thing that's controlling your movement and ability to speak is the brain, and that has a reserve supply of 10 to 15 seconds. Now that's minimum. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Mark, that's pretty graphic and horrible to hear, but also pretty powerful.

NEJAME: Extremely powerful and really anybody in this business knows it to be true. I have a homicide case in my office where somebody had a similar injury with a knife and they ran through an alley before they ended up falling and talking and everything else. To accentuate this graphic explanation, he explained how a SWAT shooter with the police department will take a head shot and not a heart shot when they're after somebody. So that the person can't react if they get shot in the head they go down versus being shot in the heart, they could keep on shooting. That's powerful. That's graphic and that's something that can resonate with any juror.

BURNETT: All right, thanks very much to all three of you as always and, of course, we'll be talking to you tomorrow night. The big question is, of course, when this is going to be done, when it's going to go to the jury, when we're going to get that verdict that the whole country is waiting for. We'll have more on the trial when we return including the controversy over the 911 tapes. Here is the question. City officials held a private session for the family to hear the tapes. City officials, not law enforcement officials. Why?

And later, for the first time three women allegedly held captive for a decade speak out and they do it on camera. You're going to hear what they have to say, and you're going to see for yourself how they're doing and what they're like.

And then we're going to go inside the cockpit of that 777 that crashed in San Francisco. So who was actually making the decisions in those final crucial second in could cultural protocol have delayed emergency procedures? It's a tough question to ask, but we're not afraid to ask it and we have an OUTFRONT investigation.

And later, is this sports, sex, or just silly?


BURNETT: Back to our lead story tonight, George Zimmerman on trial. We are in the final moments of this trial, everyone. Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte took the stand today and the questions focused on one single event central here. It's a private meeting. I want to emphasize that, a private meeting and in that meeting, the 911 audio tapes that you have heard so much of that are at the core of this entire case from the night Trayvon Martin was killed were played for the Martin family.



NORTON BONAPARTE, SANFORD CITY MANAGER: The mayor, the Martin family, and the attorneys, Mr. Crump and Miss Natalie Jackson, and Trayvon's brother and then another individual I don't know his name. O'MARA: Was there any law enforcement present?



BURNETT: No law enforcement present but officials, politicians. OUTFRONT now is Daryl Parks, an attorney for Trayvon Martin's family and our legal analyst, Mark Nejame, is still with us. Mark, I want to ask you a question about this and get Daryl's reaction. The question is this, Bonaparte's testimony about the 911 call. You are saying it points to what went wrong in the handling of this case. When you say that, what specifically do you mean?

NEJAME: Well, look, any proper police practice would be not to go ahead and have a mass of people around somebody when they are going to be a critical witness in a case, a criminal case. And so what ended up happening here there was all of one side all gathered around when this tape was being played. I recognize the sensitivity and the compassion that wanted to be expressed, but this is a criminal homicide investigation.

And so proper police practices should have been followed through. Chief Lee was told by politicians, a city manager and a mayor, that he could not conduct his police investigation. And now what's the outcome? They have a compromised tape. We know that. Tracy Martin has said initially or indicated they weren't sure whose voice it was.

A critical part of the case has been compromised because proper police practices were not followed, that the police chief was kicked out by politicians, and a proper investigation was not allowed to ensue. This is not taking one side against another. This hurts the state's case because proper procedures were not followed and not allowed to be followed by the police department, by the chief who apparently wanted to do it the right way but was stopped.

BURNETT: All right, so Daryl, obviously, Mark is making an impassioned case here. I mean, you are representing Trayvon Martin's family. Shouldn't the police have been present? I mean, why would you have a mayor, the city manager, attorneys for the family and no law enforcement? Does that hurt you? Was that improper?

PARKS: No, I don't think it hurts us, and I respectfully disagree with Mark in that if you listen to what the city manager said today, he said that he was trying to make sure that this tape was not released to the public without letting the parents hear it first. So, it wasn't a law enforcement situation.

And I think it's important we also remember where we were in this case. The family was very distrustful of the police department at the time. They were told they were not going to charge him and they were very adamant about it. At that point the family wanted nothing else to do with them. And rightfully so. These people knew George Zimmerman and at the time they believed they were not trying to move forward with a full investigation of the case. So, I disagree with Mark that they were in the middle of a full investigation. Now, I think it's very appropriate that the mayor, Triplett and Mr. Bonaparte (ph) were respectful of the fact they were about to release this to the public and to give the family a chance who had lost a 17-year-old child and to have an opportunity to listen to it themselves.

Let me say to you, this case is not hinged upon whether or not George Zimmerman was getting beat up and whether he was crying for help. Let's not make this what the case is about. This case should hinge upon at the time he pulled the gun was he truthfully, reasonably in fear of his life with which I believe he wasn't. That I believe that that came can out today in the testimony, although they tried to make it about the gun where at plenty of testimony about the fact there was no blood on Trayvon's hands. Where in testimony that people who have bald heads bleed very easily. So, you know, I think we scored some good points today.

BURNETT: Daryl, do you have any fear, though, that you pushed too hard, that the state pushed too hard in going for a second-degree murder conviction? Obviously in that, you know, you can get 25 years to life. But manslaughter, although it sounds like less, you can get 15 to 30 years and you don't get parole. It's not a slap on the wrist. It's a very serious thing. But the burden of proof in terms of, you know, intent that you have to show, you know, the anger, the planning is different. Do you think you went too far?

PARKS: Well, first of all, I wasn't the one that charged him. The state of Florida charged him. They charged after they did a full investigation based on the evidence that they have. And so, they believe that rightfully so they have enough evidence and if they don't then the lesser includes will also be given if that evidence is supported. So, we still feel very strong about our case. We really believe George Zimmerman will be convicted this week are for the death of Trayvon Martin.


As you heard Daryl Parks say, he believes George Zimmerman will be convicted this week. As we said, this case has gone so much more quickly than almost anyone expected that you could possibly have a verdict this week.

And we still have more Zimmerman news to come including some particular watchers of this trial and the role that they're going to play after the verdict is read. There's a reason why the entire country is watching this trial and cares so much.

And then an OUTFRONT investigation. Did culture play a role in the Asiana airlines crash in San Francisco?

And tonight's shout out, floating towards disaster and a rescue straight out of a movie.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BURNETT: So one major concern for the city of Sanford, Florida, is what happens after the verdict is read in the George Zimmerman trial. A group of religious leaders is actually at this moment working very hard to make sure that there's no violence.

It's a real concern and our David Mattingly has that part of the story.


DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): His attorneys approached the end of their defense of George Zimmerman and work goes on building a case for peace. Sanford area pastors observed the trail from the courtroom watching the evidence and reporting back to their congregation in hopes of managing reactions to a potentially unpopular verdict.

SHARON PATTERSON, PASTOR, GETTING YOUR HOUSE IN ORDER MINISTRIES: We had to accept the verdict and go forward.

MATTINGLY: Pastor Sharon Patterson's message to her small congregation is keep talking with family and friends and keep actions within the law.

Are people going to listen to you?

PATTERSON: I cannot say everyone will listen.

MATTINGLY: It's an unknown that concerns every pastor I talked to.

Reverend Charlie Holt, St. Peter's Episcopal, is just a couple of miles from where Trayvon Martin was killed.

There's speculation that there will be more demonstrations. Do you think there's a potential for violence?

REVEREND CHARLIE HOLT, ST PETER'S EPISCOPAL: I don't know. I don't think it would come from the people of this community.

MATTINGLY: Opinion shared by city officials. Law enforcement outside Sanford isn't taking any chances. Two hundred miles away, the Broward County sheriff put out this video.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Raise your voice and not your hands.

MATTINGLY: Targeting youth, the video encourages nonviolence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's give violence a rest.

REVEREND LOWMAN OLIVER, ST. PAUL MISSIONARY BAPTIST CHURCH: Our young minds don't think the same way as the older minds.

MATTINGLY: Sanford Pastor Lowman Oliver says the peaceful protests of a year ago brought about Zimmerman's arrest and new African-American police chief to Sanford, but emotions still run high among young people identified with Trayvon Martin.

OLIVER: The belief that a certain individual teenager was being profiled because of what he had on and how he looked and he wound up dead.

MATTINGLY: Painful memories that some fear will not diminish whether or not George Zimmerman goes free. And Sanford braces for a verdict.


BURNETT: David, I know you're talking about Sanford bracing. Now, there's been talk around the country of whether the verdict goes one way or the other, that people are worried about potential violence. What is the scenario that officials are most worried about in Sanford?

MATTINGLY: Well, in Sanford, so much work has been done over the last year. It is not the same mood, it is not the same political environment that we saw a year ago. They're worried there might be influences from people outside the area coming in to do some kind of harm and cause some kind of trouble.

There's been particular interest in the actions of gangs. Not just here but throughout south Florida the fear is that possibly one of those gangs might try to get some notoriety by causing some trouble, so there's been a tremendous outreach not just in Sanford but in other places as well to try to diffuse anything that might be lurking as this verdict comes up.

BURNETT: David Mattingly, thank you very much.

He has been reporting for us on it this trial since the very beginning.

OUTFRONT next, the NSA leaker. That's what you call him, Edward Snowden. He could find asylum in a foreign country, if he could actually get there. So, we looked into this and we found the hefty price tag that it would cost for him to get somewhere if he's allowed to go to avoid the long reach of American law.

Plus, could cultural protocol have played a key factor in the cockpit of the Asiana plane crash in San Francisco? An OUTFRONT investigation.

And then for the first time, you will the voices and see the three alleged captives in the Ohio kidnapping case. What they wanted to say together.

And now to tonight's shout out. This is a different sort of helicopter rescue we're going to show you. This video comes from the absolutely gorgeous country of Norway. According to local media reports, the couple in the boat that you see were stranded. They hit a rock and then their engine lost power. The problem is, yes, there was a big problem, they were nearing the edge of a hydroelectric dam and those are impressive in Norway. Fortunately the police were able to help them out. They hovered near the boat, they pushed it near the shore and our shout out goes to those pilots for their quick thinking in saving lives.


BURNETT: Welcome back to the second hatch of OUTFRONT.

We start with stories we care about where we focus on reporting from the front lines. We want to begin tonight with new insight into Osama bin Laden's life on the run. A 337-page report leaked to Pakistani media reveals that bin Laden was a frugal family man.

He wore a cowboy hat while tending his garden. Cowboy hat, of course, with the brim, you know, makes it harder for drones to see your face. And it shows that he went to great lengths to live undetected in Pakistan for nine years shaving his beard once, a significant thing in his culture to avoid religion.

Each time his wife became pregnant, doctors were told she was deaf and mute so that she wouldn't have to speak.

Our national security analyst Peter Bergen, who's been studying bin Laden for years, tell us the report fits with what he knows about bin Laden, that he was a doting parent but a disciplinarian and was very tight with money.

Well, a Russian lawmaker tweeted and deleted quickly a message today that said NSA leaker Edward Snowden has accepted Venezuela's asylum offer.

All right. Even if Snowden did accept that offer, how in the world is he going to get there from Moscow without flying over airspace belonging to the United States and its allies? This is the question we asked in the show about two weeks ago, because if that happens, the U.S. or its allies could force the plane to land. And then, of course, take him into custody.

So, we looked into it. "Foreign Policy" reports Snowden would have to -- get ready for this, everybody -- fly north to the Bering Sea, and then fly over and through the Denmark Strait going south to steer clear of Newfoundland, flying in between some islands and eventually land in Caracas. OK. So, that's a pretty round-about route.

And then, what about a plane? Well, we spoke to an aviation company that didn't want to be named or connected to Snowden. They told us there are at least nine types of planes that could make the 6,800-mile trip to Venezuela from Moscow with all those weird little diversions without having to stop to refuel. That's crucial. This would have to be a privately owned plane and a charter would require a full passenger manifest.

The cheapest option is a Gulfstream 5. And just for that one flight, $216,000.

So, they've got to find the money. Well, it was an explosive day in the Whitey Bulger trial. And we are not exaggerating here. On the stand, Kevin Weeks, a former tough guy who was once so close to Bulger, they spoke daily. Things have obviously changed on that front, because Weeks at one point referred to Bulger as a rat. Bulger responded hissing, "You suck". Then, Weeks dropped the F-bomb and Bulger followed. The jury just watched.

Law professor Margaret McClain (ph) was in the courtroom today, tells OUTFRONT Bulger's attorney was able to get under the skin of Weeks who was a key government witness, getting him to admit he's a liar. Supposedly that is a win for Whitey Bulger.

It has been 703 days since the United States lost its top credit rating. What are we doing to get it back?

Well, G.E. Capital and AIG, two companies at the center of it, will be subjected to tougher government oversight under new financial reform laws. They were singled out because they were deemed, quote, "systematically important."

And now, what happened just moments before the crash? New details tonight from the NTSB. Federal investigators interviewed the Asiana flight crew today and those interviews included the pilot who was actually physically it at the controls when Flight 214 hit the seawall at San Francisco's airport.

According to National Transportation Safety Board's chairwoman, Deborah Hersman, the flying pilot was a veteran. He it did have about 10,000 hours of flight time but he was still in their initial operating experience when it came to the 777 on which they're now saying he had flown about 35 hours. That's a little bit fewer than we had originally thought.

Kyung Lah is OUTFRONT tonight in San Francisco with the latest.

And, Kyung, I know there were lots of new things we found out today. What else?

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Other key things we learned -- the pilot, Erin, assume the auto throttle was -- auto throttle was working as designed.

At the last minute, they realized they were flying too slow, too low as well. They tried to make corrections between 500 to 200 feet. That failed -- the landing gear hitting the seawall first, then the tail. And amazingly, two flight attendants were ejected from the plane. They landed on the runway but they survived.

Something else that we are learning from the NTSB is that this is the very first time these two men have flown together. Something they will certainly return to, the communication between these two men.


LAH (voice-over): A mob of cameras nearly crushing the man who leads Asiana Airlines as he arrived in San Francisco International. The somber president trying to express condolences -- but he was forced back inside the terminal as reporters shouted questions. The biggest one, what happened inside the cockpit?

The man behind the controls as Asiana flight 214 crashed was the co-pilot making his very first landing at San Francisco International in a 777. The NTSB says he had just 35 hours in that aircraft, far more junior than a his supervisor who had landed 777s at this airport 33 times, with no recorded distress calls before landing, part of the NTSB's investigation will be examining cockpit communication and culture.

DEBORAH HERSMAN, NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD CHAIRWOMAN: We need to understand what was going on in the cockpit.

LAH: Communication in cockpits raises an alarm to USC aviation safety professor Najmedin Meshkati who has studied culture in cockpits for two decades. In the '80s and '90s, Korea's largest airline Korean Air suffered a series of accidents, including Flight 801 in Guam in 1997 and the airline was criticized for its authoritarian culture in the cockpit.

Then, in 1999, Korean Air Cargo 8509 plunged into a village near London. The investigation later revealed the junior officers were so deferential to the captain that they failed to speak up before it was too late.

Social hierarchy and deference to elders is paramount in Korean culture. While Korean aviation today has safety standards rated among the highest in the world, Meshkati says hierarchical cultures can lead subordinates to stay quiet even in the face of safety problems.

NAJMEDIN MESHKATI, AVIATION SAFETY EXPERT, USC: If you have that culture that doesn't help or it's not conducive to this behavior, then you cannot have an appropriate level of questioning attitude, which is requirement for safety culture.

LAH: The unspoken rules of Korean culture may also help explain this curious comment by Asiana 214 flight attendant Yoon Hye Lee. Immediately after the plane stopped skidding after the crash, Lee went to the captain.

"I knocked on the cockpit door," she says. "The captain opened it and I asked, 'Are you OK, captain?' And he said, 'Yes, I'm OK.' I asked, 'Should I inform an evacuation?' And he told me to wait."


LAH: It is important to note that we don't know exactly what happened in the cockpit. We will learn that at the end of this investigation.

And something I would like to add, Erin, there is an intense reaction within the country of Korea. Koreans have a deep connection to the global community through the products that its companies produce like Samsung, Hyundai, Asiana, and they are feeling it intensely in the country that this is a black eye for all Koreans. BURNETT: For all Koreans. All right, which I think says so much when you are talking about the culture.

Kyung Lah, thank you very much.

And as federal investigators try to really find out the bottom line of what caused the crash of Asiana Flight 214, some of the most critical evidence is likely to come from the cockpit and the man operating the plane.

OUTFRONT tonight, I want to bring back in Mark Weiss. He's with us yesterday. Former 777 pilot for American Airlines.

First, Captain Weiss, I'm just wondering what your thoughts are when you first hear, you know, Kyung Lah's report. You know, we don't know about talking about previous incidents with Korean crashes, with Korean airlines, where an authoritarian hierarchical culture has played a role with people so afraid to speak up.

I mean, do you think it's possible that could have played a role? Obviously, we don't know. But do you think it's possible?

MARK WEISS, FORMER 777 PILOT, AMERICAN AIRLINES: without question. Obviously, it's been looked at.

But this, I think, was one of the first things that came to many people's minds. There are certain cultures and certain backgrounds, as you've reported, that have this authoritative culture that prevent people from speaking up even when they're supposed to be speaking up. It's something that here in the United States we're trained to speak up at all times no matter how senior you are or how junior you are as a pilot within that cockpit. It is your responsibility --


WEISS: -- to make sure that you speak up.

BURNETT: And what do you think -- I mean, when you think about that cockpit, so you had the man, the pilot at the controls who had a lot of experience but not much experience on this plane. And as you said yesterday, you didn't think that should play a role in what happened. You said, well, if he'd flown a lot of other planes, he should be able to by seniority switch to flying a 777. He'd be all right with that. He was sitting next to an instructor pilot. It was a third pilot also in the jump seat, in the cockpit.

Did all three of them miss the signs then?

WEISS: Well, you know, being a longtime pilot, you're going to typically transfer from airplane to airplane over time. And the route that he took, he went to ground school, he went to simulator training. He followed all the necessary protocols and procedures to be assigned to that position in the airplane.

The Czech (ph) airman was really giving him instructions. It was a training flight, as you said. But what you -- this is -- this is typical. This is common. And it's not really something that I think is the prime factor. It may have been an underlying cause.

But, again, accidents don't happen from a single cause. It's a link of events chained together.


And what about the fact foreign pilots are not required to take drug and alcohol tests after a crash? I think a lot of people weren't aware of that until we found out that these pilots were not subjected to those sorts of tests. Do you think that that should change? I mean, obviously, there's no indication that was involved but we're never going to know at this point.

WEISS: Well, you know, personally, I think if you come into our airspace, that certain protocols should be adhered to.

But then that also requires that U.S. pilots follow the same procedures when they're in their other host countries. It's a kind of quid pro quo. So, you've got to be careful, you know, what you ask for.

BURNETT: That's a fair point.

All right. Captain Weiss, good to talk to you again and thank you.

WEISS: Thank you.

BURNETT: Well, the Cleveland kidnapping victims are speaking. Two months after being freed from a home police say belonged to Ariel Castro, from a horrible captivity from everything we have understood, Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus and Michelle Knight appeared for the first time together in an online video to express their gratitude to those who have supported them.


AMANDA BERRY, HELD CAPTIVE FOR 10 YEARS: I want to thank everyone who has helped me and my family through this entire ordeal. Everyone who has been there to support us, it's been a blessing to have such an outpouring of love and kindness.


BURNETT: OUTFRONT tonight, Dr. Jeff Gardere. He's a clinical psychologist.

And, Jeff, it's always nice to talk to you.


BURNETT: That was Amanda Berry we heard speaking there.


BURNETT: I want to play a little bit more. She was obviously the one who made that phone call on that day, who decided to run across the street and try to reach out for help, and no one at this point is sure why on that day she did that.

But I want to play a little bit more about what she said about her recovery. Here she is.


BERRY: First and foremost, I want everyone to know how happy I am to be home with my family and my friends. It's been unbelievable. I'm getting stronger each day and I'm having my privacy has helped immensely. I ask that everyone continues to respect our privacy and give us time to have a normal life.


BURNETT: I mean, she obviously had prepared for that, Jeff. There's no question. But she seems, you know, upbeat and not as if she is pretending to be happier than she is or anything like that. What do you interpret there?

GARDERE: Well, I think she genuinely is appreciative of all the help that she has gotten, the donations that have been given, the prayers people have sent out to them. People do really, legitimately love them, and they are expressing that appreciation. And I think it's great.

And I think it shows that she is coping. She's got a lot of issues, a lot of problems she is going to have to deal with for a very long time. The PTSD, depression, anxiety, but this is an affirmation. That's what people need to understand.

A lot of people, Erin, have said this is too soon. I think this puts them firmly on the road to recovery. But it is a road that will take the rest of their lives.

BURNETT: Which considering what appears to have happened to them is something that I think everyone could imagine it would take the rest of their lives.

I want to talk about Michelle Knight because I want everyone to have a chance to see each of the women here. She was obviously held the longest since 2002, was physically abused, was the one, you know, alleged that he had forcibly beaten her and caused her to have an abortion because of his abuse.

Here is what she had to say.


MICHELLE KNIGHT, HELD CAPTIVE FOR 10 YEARS: I just want everyone to know I'm doing just fine. I may have been through hell and back, I am strong enough to walk through hell with a smile on my face, and with my head held high and my feet firmly on the ground. Walking hand-in-hand with my best friend, I will not let the situation define who I am. I will define the situation. I don't want to be consumed by hatred.


BURNETT: Just hard to watch and hard to hear but very poignant.

GARDERE: Absolutely.

She says that she's just fine. In her mind, she is getting better. Obviously, she's not in the place that she may think that she is. But, again, this is another example that I'm seeing here that she is really trying. She is now firmly on a path where she wants to completely have this situation transform her life.

She doesn't want to be a victim. She doesn't want to be a survivor. She wants to be a victor. She is using this as rocket fuel to completely transform her life to find a purpose and a mission now to help others, and this is the best form of recovery that we can see.

But as we've talked about, it's going to be a lifetime of recovery.

BURNETT: And what about Gina DeJesus? She barely spoke. The interview had to coax an answer out of her and I'll let everyone just see. So, the viewer can see for themselves.


REPORTER: Gina, if you could say something to each and every person out there who contributed money to your fund to help you, what would you say to them?

GINA DEJESUS, KIDNAPPING VICTIM: I would say thank you for the support.


BURNETT: And then her parents, Jeff, did most of the talking after that. She really didn't want to talk.

GARDERE: Well, she clearly is struggling. They're all struggling, but we are seeing it in her a little bit more, the depression, sadness, a little bit more in her, Erin. But the important thing is that her parents did support her. She does have the support of her parents. Her mother has always been there for her.

And they made some really great points, which is don't look at the worst in people. Look at the best in people. Never give up if you're in this kind of a situation and someone is missing.

So, a lot of great things came out of this tape today.

BURNETT: All right. Jeff Gardere, thank you very much.

GARDERE: My pleasure.

BURNETT: And OUTFRONT next, the runaway train that explodes, leaving an apocalyptic scene. Dozens could be dead. Was it caused by one person's fatal decision?

And then we'll show you these -- art, sports, or just a salacious ploy? Our guests take on the body issue.


BURNETT: We're back with tonight's "Outer Circle" where we reach out to the sources around the world.

And tonight, we go to Canada where that train derailed. It derailed in Quebec and it has killed at least 15 people and the number could go significantly higher than that and police now say there is evidence the train was tampered with. What does that word mean?

I asked our Anna Coren what else police have found.


ANNA COREN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Erin, there is a major development in the train derailment disaster here in Lac- Megantic, Quebec, Canada, with police confirming that they have found evidence of tampering, and that this is now a criminal investigation.

Now, the company that owns the freight train has maintained from the very beginning, they believe this is an act of sabotage. It would now appear that those suspicions were not unfounded.

A massive investigation is underway. The locomotive events recorder, which is a black box for trains, has been found. That data is being processed but I must stress -- this is only the very beginning of this investigation.

They're also in need of DNA samples to identify the remains. The death toll has risen: 15 people now dead, 35 missing. But the grim reality is that as the days go by, the families of the missing will tragically learn their loved ones are dead -- Erin.


BURNETT: And now, baring it all. "ESPN" magazine is releasing the first images of this year's special body issue. And in this issue a number of athletes, I want to emphasize, young and old, male and female shed all of their clothes.

The magazine says it's a chance to admire athletes who push their physiques to profound frontiers.

Is that really what the magazine is selling?

OUTFRONT tonight: Stephanie Miller, Dean Obeidallah and Reihan Salam.

All right. I saw you all really enjoy this.

So, Stephanie, these are athletes. They are not super models. But I have to say, I look at Gary Player, 77 years old. That guy looks really, really good. OK?

Their bodies are healthy. Do you have a problem with this?

STEPHANIE MILLER, RADIO HOST: Erin, I'm going to guess that Dean and Reihan don't want to see the pictures, the nude pictures I have of Billy Jean King playing putt-putt.

I think there is a double standard. I think the women seem a littler more sexualized in this issue. I don't know what you think.

I mean -- you know, listen, I have a lot of male friends and I'll tell you, it's not hard to see a guy naked, all you have to do is ask.


BURNETT: Dean, you know, it is a way to sell magazines. I mean, let's be honest. Do you think the magazine is object flying the athletes? I talked about Gary Player, right, you know, he looks great. He's 77.

And to Stephanie's point, though, when I look at the women -- yes, I would say, yes, these are more sexualized. That's hard to deny.

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, COMEDIAN: Gary is naked, holding a big golf ball. I mean, how much more objectified can it be?

But to be honest, it's all -- it's glorifying athletes who've worked really hard --

BURNETT: He's like Atlas Shrugged, though, you know? He's not like --

OBEIDALLAH: He looks great.


BURNETT: -- breast, in the middle of the road.

OBEIDALLAH: Stephanie, you like Goody Procter from "The Crucible". It's not all sexual. People can show their body parts. The original Olympians in ancient Greece did it all naked. That wasn't sexual, to show their prowess and also intimidate their opponents.

That was this is part of to me. It's like the statute of David, or the thinker, or the discuss thrower. It's not all sexual. It's about the human body being beautiful, to have perfected it.

If I looked like that, I'd be shirtless now, instead of wearing three layers of clothing. But it's different.


REIHAN SALAM, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, Erin, you said it at the very start. You have young, old, men, women. This is the fifth issue, the fifth body issue "ESPN" magazine has put out. And when you look at the first --

BURNETT: Old man, an old man and young women. I want to be clear.

SALAM: So there is a spread. The point I want to make, this is the fifth one, right? And in 2009, it was way more skewed towards women and you didn't have the same number of older athletes represented. That's a lot of progress in five years.

"Sports Illustrated" swimsuit issue is about to have its 50th issue. And 50 years ago, they were featuring only young, hot women. And 50 years, you know, later, they are still featuring only young, hot women.

So I think when that when you look at what ESPN is doing --


SALAM: -- it's actually a very different portrait of naked bodies, a much wider varieties.

MILLER: Dean, give me a break. That picture we saw, that woman with the gas can, like oh, please, I'm naked and my car broke down.

OBEIDALLAH: She drives a car. This is what she does. She's a car driver.

MILLER: Please.

OBEIDALLAH: Let her have a back story, Stephanie. Come on.

MILLER: Give me a break.

OBEIDALLAH: Can we do the CNN OUTFRONT position on this?

MILLER: The guys are different. There is a guy in a bathtub with bubbles and he couldn't look happier like he can't wait to move the bubbles and show you what's up.

OBEIDALLAH: Why do you hate human bodies, Stephanie? These are beautiful bodies. Let them show off their body. You're like John Ashcroft, you want to hide the statute because one breast showing and the spirit of the statute at the A.G.'s office some years ago.

SALAM: It's also representative than before that are making progress, if that's what you care about.

BURNETT: OK. Stephanie, to that point that Reihan is making about progress, you know, you look at Lolo Jones. She was an U.S. Olympic athlete. She got a lot of criticism for being in the body issue because people said she didn't have a chance of winning a medal, she was just in there because she was hot, was the criticism.

Then, Anna Kournikova did the swimsuit issue of "Sports Illustrated."

But this isn't the swim suit issue, this is -- this is progress from that, isn't it?

MILLER: I suppose. Does anyone want to see Martina Navratilova naked at Wimbledon? I don't know.

OBEIDALLAH: Sure, why not?

BURNETT: I bet she looked awesome.

OBEIDALLAH: This isn't "Penthouse" or "Playboy". They're not pretending to drop a book and looking pouty at the camera. I mean, come on. These are athletes, like sculptures of Olympians from ancient Greek, that's what it reminds me of, frankly -- except for the gas can one. That one I really can't defend. So --

BURNETT: The gas can --


BURNETT: Or perhaps it leaves nothing to be desired.

MILLER: That's a AAA ad.

BURNETT: Thanks to all. All right. Thanks to all, as always.

OUTFRONT next, the travesty at sea -- 1,000 witnesses and all of the lawyers are on strike. The trial the world would be watching is on hold, no joke. That's next.


BURNETT: Every night, we take a look outside the day's top stories for what we call the OUTFRONT "Outtake"

And today, we learned that the Costa Concordia trial is postponed. You remember, it's the cruise ship that sank last year off the coast of Italy, 32 people lost their lives. And the ship's captain, Schettino, was charged with abandonment and manslaughter.

So why is this trial, which apparently will have 1,000 witnesses, postponed? Well, of course, because the lawyers in Italy are on strike and this apparently is normal. Italy's ministry of infrastructure and transport actually has a Web site in which they post a schedule of strikes. Currently, for example, it warns of a four-hour strike on the country's airline Al Italia next week.

So this might be why we shouldn't be surprised Italy's credit rating got cut today. When you go on strike all the time, this is part of the consequences. Economic output in Italy is down 10 percent from where it was about five years ago. And there are a lot of reasons for this beyond strikes like, you know, hey the man running Italy for the past decade was maybe too busy at bunga-bunga parties to notice the strike problem or deal with it, because after all, those prostitutes never went on strike.

Seriously, if Italy dealt with giving its workers a fair deal or maybe give him some tough love, depends on how you see this, maybe the country would be stronger and the Costa Concordia passengers would get their justice.

"A.C. 360" starts right now.