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The Wealth Report
Robert Frank looks at the culture and economy of the wealthy.

Do Fewer Americans Support Taxing the Rich?

    • If you take into account the lossof write-offs, etc., from the past that were taken away by the Reagan ad Bush tax cuts, the rich today are paying an effective tax rate that is awfuly close to the same as when the tax rates were as high as 70%.

      The point? The rich pay enough taxes as an entire group (I'm sure there are individuas getting away with something, but you do not design an entire tax system to cover outliers ---- that kind of stupid action gets us things like the ALT tax).

      The problem is twofold:
      1) the American budget (ie spending) is just plain too high and spread to too many, and wrong, priorities, and

      2)not enough individuals pay into the system (approx 50% pay, 50% don't)

      Fix these items first, THEN look at tax rates and other revenue streams.

    • The question should be why not tax the rich more? Is that not where the money is? Whould not a tax increase be less burdensome on the wealthy than on the non-wealthy? Do they not not need to pay their fair share?

      Maintaining a "privileged" class for the wealthy only perpetuates a class structure. (And no, no one is advocating taxing away their wealth.)


    • "The blessings of liberty" that the Constitution secures includes getting really really rich. It is unAmerican to stand in the way of those who choose to get really really rich. It is unAmerican to pry from poor, middle class, and rich alike, whatever they have earned with their honest sweat, toil, and savings. Even the Commies know that to get rich is glorious. What is it that the mainstream media and government find so distatsteful about pursuing what the Constitution's first words spell out as the American purpose?

    • I do not fault those who are rich because I am not. I fault my self for not saving more and working smarter while I was younger. I am trying to play catch up and save my money now so that in 15 years I won't have to depend in the government. Unfortunately, the harder I work now the more the government wants to take. They are effectively inhibiting me from ever accumulating enough money to retire truly independent. The people like Buffet used the system to their great advantage. Good for them. But don't move the goal posts now that you have won. I like the comment someone made about how they are supposed to be upset about how Mitt Romney spends his money but be OK with Obama spending MY money. Sorry, Barrack, I don't believe that YOU know better how to spend my money than I do. Anybody but Obama in 2012!

    • If you analyze the numbers impartially, there is absolutely NO WAY the buffett rule/tax is going to come anywhere near solving the deficit/ debt problem- it won't even make a dent. As "anonymous" implied, the bottom 50% has to kick in something. But it's not going to happen with committed marxists in the executive and legislative branches.
      The president (telling of his character) just uses this agitprop as a means of pitting american against american for his own power obsession.

    • If you'd prefer to get religious/biblical- the 9th commandment: don't be coveting your neighbor's goods. Or the implication is- when you have goods your other neighbor will covet them and you'll reap what you have sown.

      Give a man fish, but also teach him how to fish. Of course, the man in need must be willing to learn how to fish.

    • 1) Increasing the tax on the wealthy has absolutely nothing to do about solving the deficit/ debt problem. It’s about fairness: proportionally and in fact the wealthy pay less taxes on their wealth than the middle class. The Buffet rules increases their tax burden to make it more proportional.

      2) It’s not true that 50% don’t pay taxes. The referred-to 50% pay lots of taxes; just not lots of federal income taxes. Between gas taxes, sales taxes, utility taxes and other taxes, no one lives tax-free in America. And when it comes to state and local taxes, the poor bear a heavier burden than the rich in every state except Vermont.

      3) The wealthy do in fact pay less taxes. According to the IRS, the actual share of the top 400 highest income-tax payers is 16.6 percent; for the average American (i.e., all those except the 400), their average tax burden is 22.5 percent.

    • Honest Republican,
      I suggest you crack a book on economics. Too often the uneducated speak in terms of an economic system being a LINEAR equation when in fact it is DIFFERENTIAL!
      A +B= C
      and C=D+F
      and F=G+E-P
      With hundred of variables depending on how you define it. One variable change affects multiple sectors.
      Example: The wealthy account for 30% of consumer spending. Tax them. Causing a drop in spending. Which leads to a drop in manufacturing jobs, which leads to a decrease in collected wage taxes and a rise in unemployment rolls. Which causes a budget shortfall for states and municipalities. The unemployment leads to social ills like crime. which puts additional costs on the criminal justice system.....and so on.

      If you doubt this, In 1990 congress "soaked the rich" by putting a hefty tax on yachts. Which threw thousands of workers who constructed yachts out of work as the wealthy stopped buying yachts. And led to the chain of events I describe above, destroying (for a time) a healthy industry.

    • And while some of us are having a conniption fit—and you know who I mean—here’s something that I hope will add to your misery: President Reagan signed into law 11 tax increases, targeted at people down the income ladder. His administration and the Washington press corps called the increases “revenue enhancers.”

    • @ Honest Republican -- you need to reread the blog post here for April 18, 2012 about average tax rates from the IRS for 2009 -- latest year tax data is available.

      Those making less than $20K pay ~2.8%.
      Up to $100K 8.1%,
      $100K to $200K are ~12%.
      $200K to $500K just under 20%.
      Those over $500K are ~24.5%.
      I rounded numbers to make it easier to read and erred on the positive.

    • Interesting example, Greywolf; but by your own logic you necessarily support more govt spending. In your example, you acknowledge that we are a consumer-driven economy and that diminishing the spending power of a major consumer—the 30% you point out—you harm the nation. With that in mind, understand that the single largest consumer in our country is the federal government. Applying your logic, diminishing our govt’s spending power harms our country. Ergo, you follow in FDR footsteps: to get us out of this mess the govt needs to spend.

      Nice to see you come to your senses and adopted a realistic progressive point of view. Congratulations.

    • Dishonest republican, To add to what" flipping the bill "wrote- The bottom 20% actually pay taxes at a rate of MINUS! 5.6% (federal that is) due to things like the EARNED INCOME TAX CREDIT (EITC). They are paid back in a refund more than they paid in (probably Mitt's money they get)

      Don't take my word for it. Read the WSJ's editorial, Friday January 20, 2012 title: "How much the rich pay". It uses figures from the congressional budget office. If you're going to come here and spout off about "fairness" (which apparently means destroying manufacturing) you should do some research first!

    • Not so fast chairman Mao, Govt has shown time and again that its "investments" and spending are disasters.

      SOLYNDRA! One of many, $500 million passed out to a political crony with no lasting economic benefit- an abandoned factory and hundreds on the unemployment rolls the end result.



      How about the fact also that time and time again, when you LOWER cap gains rates YOU GET MORE TAX REVENUE. AND RAISE TAX RATES YOU GET LESS. That ought to cause some "conniptions"

    • Sorry about the double. Computer locked up.


      Of course "a majority of Americans support higher taxes on the wealthy". "Tax someone else" is the Liberal mantra, that appeals to those without a sense of fair play. As to the "number of millionaires who purportedly believe in paying more", they are free to send a check to the Treasury for whatever (additional) amount they deem appropriate, instead of hiring an army of lawyers and accountants to reduce their tax bill to the minimum. What they actually advocate is that OTHERS pay more, while they continue to enjoy the exemptions that the Liberals put into every tax law for their friends.

    • That Warren Buffett is a piece o work, He becomes a multi billionaire under the system, then makes each of his three children billionaires, then pompously wants to alter the game so now no else can do it. Write a check to the treasury! Warren.

    • Most of the fine Americans who answered the pole don't know what a capital gain is, when it is taxed, or what is a deferral of foreign income. They don't understand that 8 out of 10 businesses don't pay corporate taxes and they certainly don't know what a VAT is. The uneducated "perceptions" of these people is a good reason for congress to continue to take advantage of them. Right?

    • I think that the whole Occupy Wall Street Movement and the talk about tax fairness and the 1 percent was really a set up by the Obama campaign for a run against Romney. People are starting to wise up about what is going on as their economic situation has deteriorated over the last 3 years and our current president has proven to be ineffectual.

    • In virtually every article on this topic, "rich", "wealthy" and "millionaire" are terms inserted for higher income earners. In actuality, many of the higher income earners aren't "rich", "wealthy" or "millionaires". So, the poll questions normally skew the results by referring to the tax payers in that manner. Taxes and rates are based on income, not a measure of wealth. In any case, why is it a surprise that half the nation (who doesn't pay any federal taxes), think the "rich", "wealthy" or "millionaires" should pay even more?

    • This attitude has probably declined because a greater percentage of those polled are baby boomers about to retire. This generational bulge of people has more money because they are older, and just like everyone else they don't really want to pay taxes on it. Capital gains and interest income are more important to people like them, and those gains are not subject to ordinary income tax.

    • I LOVE the poor people (also) but just a quick question about this low tax bracket of the wealthy.

      Why do the rich pay such a low tax rate ? Is it because they spend most of their money in charitable causes or is it because they are good at finding loopholes in the tax code ?

      I hope there are provisions in our code to allow and encourage the wealthy to be charitable. I know I plan to be charitable when I become wealthy (I hope). I have some grand plans to help the poor with housing, education , clothing and transportation and labor that I hope will change their lives irrevocably and leave them predisposed to making love to everyone (and for everyone to make love to everyone). (hopefully)

    • @ Question Please -- a few rich pay a low tax rate, but most of us do not. If you look at my response above where the information is pulled from this blog a few days ago, you will see that we pay the highest effective rate of taxes. The top 1% earns 27% of the income in the US, but we are punished and pay almost 40% of all of the taxes. This is the progressive tax system people discuss here.

      There is no such thing as a "tax loophole". Open the tax code and find me the "tax loopholes" -- they don't exist. We who are wealth do not earn all of our income via a salary. We make multiple investments -- many of which have a lower tax rate to help businesses and communities -- long term capital gains on stocks and tax free municipal, county, and state bonds. We get a break so that businesses have money to grow and operate without borrowing. Cities et. al. get money at a lower rate so that they don't have to increase your property taxes or sales taxes. It is a fine line for the companies and governments. If taxes are too low as Democrats currently think, then the amount of revenue collected is too low. If taxes are too high, we will invest in something else, so companies will have problems as will cities If you look a couple of posts back, you will see that a significant number of wealthy American's left the US last year and gave up their citizenship, hence will no longer pay any US taxes. We have a spirited debate here under Robert's guidance of topics. It is almost always interesting and very seldom ever boring.

    • FACTS the maintstream media desperately and relentlessly IGNORE: The top 20% of wage earners pay over 80% of federal taxes collected; the bottom 50% pay NONE; US economic history CLEARLY shows that when federal taxes are cut, the Treasury takes in MORE tax revenue (due to the stimulating effect on the economy)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Bob American! Calling Bob American! Now hear this: you are wrong.

      Really Bob, how many times must it be pointed out that these figures are incomplete and, in the case of the 50%, just plain wrong?

    • Technically Bob is incorrect -- only 46% of people pay no federal income taxes (unless you round to the nearest 5%, in which case, he is correct). That is right from the IRS web pages.

    • Hate to say it but we will all need to pay more taxes. The vast majority of Federal Spending goes into Military, Debt, Military Retirement, Civil Service retirement and Medicare. None of these can be cut easily. Cutting all earmarks and welfare doesn’t put a dent in gap between spending and tax receipts.
      Taxing just the rich won’t get us there. Raising, and spreading the price of public goods, via more taxes, may diminish our appetites for these services.
      On a second note, I’m always amused by the term fairness when applied to taxes. People use it in the same way they talk about unit of measurement like an inch or meter when everyone has their own standard.
      Is fair charging everyone the same amount, like selling hamburgers?
      Is fair everyone paying the same percentage?
      Is fair those with the ability to pay more to pay more?

    • ...and please, dopey republicans, don't say your party doesn't raise taxes. Remember Reagan? He raised taxes 17 times.

    • Problem is a combination of excess spending and stagnating revenues - same as with any business. I would suggest immediate cut of 10% across the board - everything SS / Defense - no sacred cows from actual 2011 levels. Then review the revenue side w/priority to fix the long term SS / Medicare solvency issues once and for all. Too much polarization around here and not enough pragmatic / tough problem solving. Dogma is a waste of time.

    • @ 5:45 -- Dopey Democrat -- Yes, Reagan raised taxes multiple times -- this was after doing a complete overhaul of the income tax system. It took a few "tweaks" to get it right after such sweeping changes.

      We need to get spending under control before we even look at increasing taxes. We overspend by ~50% of what the government currently takes in taxes. There is not enough money if you took all of the money from the US wealthy to pay the debt. Something has to give -- that is why people with wealth are leaving the country. I think that we have about 2 years before the house of cards comes tumbling down.

    • Regarding these statistics below, I have a question. Does that income quoted refer to total income, or adjusted gross income? If it's total income, I paid about 9.3%. If it's AGI, I paid about 12.3%. Either way, I must be doing something wrong, since I'm above 8.1%, regardless!

      Those making less than $20K pay ~2.8%.
      Up to $100K 8.1%,
      $100K to $200K are ~12%.
      $200K to $500K just under 20%.
      Those over $500K are ~24.5%.

      1) When they talk of income like this, do they refer to total income, or adjusted gross income?

    • Why do you think American support for taxing the rich is declining?

      Because Americans are smart?

    • Does anyone know where the statistic 50 percent don't pay taxes came from?

    • Kurt -- that comes from the IRS statistics about returns. It is around 46 or 47% for the last 2 years that tax information is available for.

    • The rich do not pay "little" taxes. Even a small percentage of a big income is a big dollar number.

      The government spends dollars, not tax rate percents.





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