Comments on: It's that time of year again! Comments on MetaFilter post It's that time of year again! Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:51:34 -0800 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:51:34 -0800 en-us 60 It's that time of year again! <a href="">It's that time of year again!</a> Yes kids, it's time once again for the <a href=''>annual </a> introduction of the Flag-Protection Amendment, currently being debated in the House of Reps. Last year the bill passed the House 305-124 and was defeated in the Senate by only six votes. It's again expected to pass the House and again expected to get shot down in the Senate, but considering the zany sitcom that 21st century American politics has become, who knows what that wacky Legislative branch will do?,2001:site.9076 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:29:49 -0800 Shadowkeeper USA politics law FlagBurning Congress brokenlink By: fleener There couldn't be a more patriotic act than to burn the American flag in celebration. Every patriotic American should do it every July 4th, until we become a police state and our freedom is taken from us.,2001:site.9076-109485 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:51:34 -0800 fleener By: tolkhan isn't that the idea of the amendment?,2001:site.9076-109491 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:59:19 -0800 tolkhan By: zempf ..because as everyone knows, every American is calling for a flag-burning amendment. Yup, forget that talk of patients' rights bills, or energy prices.. let's focus on issues that really impact society.,2001:site.9076-109493 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:00:54 -0800 zempf By: zempf <font size=-1>Hmm.. that reads badly. Let me make a footnote that I'm knocking Congress for putting stupid bills like this through instead of ones that actually matter..</font>,2001:site.9076-109494 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:02:24 -0800 zempf By: harmful In the words of Jed Bartlet, "There is a population of this country that seems to focus a great deal of time and energy on this conversation; so much so that I am moved to ask this question: Is there an epidemic of flag burning going on that I'm not aware of?",2001:site.9076-109500 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:19:50 -0800 harmful By: jpoulos <i>Is there an epidemic of flag burning going on that I'm not aware of?"</i> That's <i>so</i> not even the issue. There isn't an "epidemic" of necrophilia going on in this country either, yet it's still illegal. That kind of talk is just a way to dance around the real issue at stake, to say "even though I oppose this bill, I think flag burning is evil and wrong, so don't penalize me politically for it." These elected officials should be standing up and <i>proudly</i> opposing this bill. If anything actually separates the US from the riff-raff (something I believe less and less these days, but still...), it's the First Amendment. I'm with fleener. There's nothing more American than burning a flag.,2001:site.9076-109509 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:36:45 -0800 jpoulos By: Skot . . . execpt for maybe burning a necrophiliac. Wrapped in the flag. USA! USA! USA!,2001:site.9076-109513 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:56:03 -0800 Skot By: Vetinari While you're at it, do your part for aesthetics and <a href="">burn Georgia's flag too</a>. Bonus: it would remain to legal to burn if this misguided amendment actually makes it. Scratch that. It's got a little tiny picture of the American flag on it. Better not, then, just to be safe. :),2001:site.9076-109514 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:57:13 -0800 Vetinari By: mrbula So, if I burned a good-sized post office, I wonder how many counts they could charge me with.,2001:site.9076-109525 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:11:52 -0800 mrbula By: capt.crackpipe This goes along with crazed nationalists' belief that America is morally superior and is wronged by would-be usurpers. To minimize anti-American speech — which is clearly deluded since God himself has bestowed the title of "world's only superpower" on the nation — is to squelch thought. Only right-thinking people are allowed to express themselves; Only those intent on boosterism have speech protected by the first amendment.,2001:site.9076-109539 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:33:43 -0800 capt.crackpipe By: capt.crackpipe (Or so they'd have it, I mean.),2001:site.9076-109540 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:34:37 -0800 capt.crackpipe By: jpoulos [twiddling thumbs, whistling, looking up and around] ...da-da-da-da-dum... [john takes one giant step away from mrbula],2001:site.9076-109560 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:59:16 -0800 jpoulos By: Shadowkeeper Amendment = <A HREF=''>passed</a>. <i>"Burning a flag is a hate crime, because burning the flag is an expression of contempt for the moral unity of the American people," said Rep. Henry Hyde</i>,2001:site.9076-109619 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:18:19 -0800 Shadowkeeper By: Doug On the off chance 3/4 of our senators lose all brain capacity and finally pass this amendment, I'll be heading down to a tattoo parlor and getting the most offensive flag tattoo possible. Oh, who am I kidding, I'm going right now anyway....,2001:site.9076-109630 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:48:09 -0800 Doug By: jpoulos <i>Burning a flag is a hate crime...</i> Is it me or is that GOP-ese for "in your liberal faces. you want hate crime legislation, we'll give you hate crime legislation"?,2001:site.9076-109634 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:57:06 -0800 jpoulos By: dhartung The GOP has been trying for years now to redefine "hate crime" to mean "disliked political speech".,2001:site.9076-109638 Tue, 17 Jul 2001 18:05:15 -0800 dhartung By: davidmsc Every time this issue and associated amendment come up in Congress, I get nervous. Being in the US military, I am prohibited from doing anything to desecrate the US flag, and in fact I am proud to pay respect to the flag at appropriate times...but if they ever take away the right to burn a US flag, it would add an element of shame & sadness to my service. On the positive side, I seriously doubt (hope?) that this loony issue will never become law. Congress may be stoopid in many ways, but there remain too many lawmakers who at least can feel, in their bones, that this is just wrong.,2001:site.9076-109795 Wed, 18 Jul 2001 06:31:21 -0800 davidmsc By: goto11 Rep. John Conyers of Michigan said it best: "I am strongly opposed to this resolution because it ... elevates a symbol of freedom over freedom itself.'',2001:site.9076-109803 Wed, 18 Jul 2001 06:37:58 -0800 goto11 By: davidmsc Exactly. It is a SYMBOL. Symbols are important and...well, symbolic, but they are not reality.,2001:site.9076-109810 Wed, 18 Jul 2001 06:56:56 -0800 davidmsc By: mac What they don't seem to get is that outlawing flag-burning just makes flag-burning a MORE POWERFUL STATEMENT. Conyers was on it: elevating a symbol of freedom over freedom itself.,2001:site.9076-109815 Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:11:11 -0800 mac By: holgate Saddam Hussein was wise to that: he added a couple of verses of the Qu'ran to the Iraqi flag, just so he could transform flag burning into blasphemy. But I'm with davidmsc: the American constitution is built upon enabling its citizens, and representatives should really be debating more ways to enable those citizens to serve, and show pride, in their country.,2001:site.9076-109825 Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:34:07 -0800 holgate By: jpoulos <i>he added a couple of verses of the Qu'ran to the Iraqi flag, just so he could transform flag burning into blasphemy.</i> Isn't adding verses of the Qu'ran to a flag, itself, blasphemous?,2001:site.9076-109850 Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:13:15 -0800 jpoulos By: mac I recall a raging debate in my office back in the early 90s. I asked the "no-burners": what if they were locked in a freezing cold warehouse with nothing to set fire to but a stack of American flags? What if someone made them an American flag birthday cake? Could they light the candles? What if a really gross, filthy, stinky guy puts on an American flag t-shirt? Isn't that disrespecting the flag too?,2001:site.9076-109857 Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:19:33 -0800 mac By: davidmsc Sometime in the late 80s, when this was before Congress, my father, who then was an active-duty Colonel and devout ACLU-er, gathered his staff in his office, lit a match, and held it directly under a small paper flag on a toothpick. Several of his staffers refused to watch and fled, or turned their heads in disgust. He didn't light the flag, but he wanted to make a point. I'm pretty proud that he did that, and admire his guts.,2001:site.9076-109927 Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:19:40 -0800 davidmsc By: holgate You're right, jpoulos, and I stand corrected: the Arabic on the <a href="">Iraqi flag</a> (added in 1991) reads "God is great", rather than anything specific from the Qu'ran. But it still turns the flag into a religious object. When checking it out, I also came across <a href="">this story</a>: <i>For the opening of their stores in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, McDonalds made special wrapping paper for the sandwiches showing regional flags, including the SA flag. However, the flag includes words from the Koran which are considered sacred and not to be thrown in the trash. The outlets closed within a day.</i> But that's to do with the sacredness of "the word" in Abrahamic religions, not the symbolic value of the flag.,2001:site.9076-109950 Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:51:51 -0800 holgate By: joaquim What about the mechanics of enforcing such a law? What would define the particular flag that is protected? Number of stripes & stars? Exact colors? If I burned a crimson, egg, and navy flag, would I be penalized? Is it a cloth flag or does paper count? If it's the symbol that counts, can any collection of red, white & blue stars & stripes be considered symbolic of the flag? Most of the people voting for this amendment already realize that it would never make it into law. The House depends on the Senate to save them; if the Senate screws it up, there's still the states that have to ratify it. Finally, there's the actual intent: per the cited article, the amendment simply gives Congress the power to enact legislation. If by some series of accidents the amendment actually came to be, would these same House members have the courage of their convictions to pass such legislation? (By the courage yardstick, probably not. By the looking-good-in-the-polls meter, they'd be on it like hens on a junebug.) There might be a few who actually believe that such an amendment and legislation would actually be good things. I disagree with them while respecting their integrity. The majority, however, are hypocrites using the guise of patriotism to gather votes. One can only hope that the flags these clowns are wrapping themselves in are the flags that get burned in protest.,2001:site.9076-110630 Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:30:49 -0800 joaquim