

Poland and Lithuania

Bad blood

Polish-Lithuanian ties are ancient but increasingly acrimonious

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Readers' comments



did i mention that i am in awe of that olde english tongue u b using. very impressive indeed. just for u, oh our educatestest one, wikipedia article on yo baltic group of (i do not doubt)very ancient languages indeed (i think the vedas were written in it;) unfortunately they did not have a written record until 1350 ad (latin script, by the way. so we do not know the whole cultural richness of those people (bummer)
by the way, i do not know why baltic languages did not have written record and alphabet, as some other indo european ones (lithuanian is one, isn't it?)such as greek, armenian, latin, persian, sanskrit (to name a few). it must have been due to the very advanced nature of the baltic people


Vilnius was never Polish, before it was occupied during the interbellum.The city had Russyn [Belarussian and Ukrainian] (from the 13th century) Quarter, German Quarter (from the 13th-14th centuries), Tartar Quarter in Lukiškės suburb, Jewish Quarter (from the 16th century, some individuals were in the city from the 14th century), Armenian school and guild, a lot of families of Italian architects, artists, scholars, courtiers, of course a lot of Lithuanians, as the city was established by them and the suburbs were exceptionally Lithuanian (see works of Ochamanski, Otrębski, Safarewicz, Zinkevičius) and only then there lived some Polish clergymen and scholars at the University (Latin was used there).
Do not forget, also, that by the law of GDL- Lithuanian Statutes, it was forbidden to settle or buy properties for Poles in the GDL
It also was never a Polish city in the end of the 19th or in the beginning of the 20th centuries.
The proof:
During the interwar occupation of the city, it was colonized and heavily polonized as the city and it's suburbs were always mostly inhabited by Lithuanians and Belarussians (read Halina Turska).

zerwikaptur in reply to Ciurlionis

What you are trying to do here is to weaken the Polish claim to Wilno.
However, you have failed to prove that because of GDL Lithuanians had a good claim to Vilnius, as Belarusssians, whose ancestors also made up GDL inhabitants, could also use this as basis of claim to Вільня. They were simply not well organised at that time.

Ciurlionis in reply to zerwikaptur

Yes, You are right, Belarussians also may have had some claims to Vilnius in the 1910s and 20s as and according to 19th century Belarussian scholar Karski, the region around Vilnius was already with polonized Belarussian majority in the 19th-20th centuries, the same as, acording to Halina Turska, local tutejshy dialect is a dialect of Belarussian language. This is another counterargument to Polish plates, street names, surnames writing, etc. in the region, as there lives mostly polonized Belarussians and Lithuanians. About polonized Lithuanians of the region, read Zinkevičius, especially his articles about the traditional surnames of the Vilnius region, what are often actually of a clear Baltic origin, only with polonized ending, e.g. if Žvirblis means something in lithuanian, what Żwirbloic stands for in polish?? :)))
It should be mentioned, that there is only one school with Belarussian language in Vilnius and the whole of Lithuania and only one tiny church for Belarussian Catholics, so they are being polonized even today and Your suggestion is to speed up polonization of local Belarussians in modern Lithuania, lol. :D
Also, Belarussians even today are heavily Russified and the majority of the population use Russian language, not their's own (would You like to call them Russians because of this? :D). So, today Lithuanians are not afraid of Belarussian claims, but should worry of Polish chauvinism...
Of course, according to the census of 2001, only 79% of people, who declared their Lithuanian Polish nationality (see what is written about Belarussians, Lithuanians and polonization) use Polish language, but the reality is even more tragic, but it is sometimes difficult to understand for the Poles in Poland, so maybe Russian signs then???

zerwikaptur in reply to Rusgaudas

GDL was started by Lithuanians, full agreement, but evolved into a very different state by the virtue of conquest.
The fact that Vilnius was in the initial "inception" part of GDL does not translate directly into claim to Vilnius a few hundred years later.
Being the capital of the whole GDL and all "Litvins" became a justifiable claim object of all nationalities claiming affiliation with GDL.

zerwikaptur in reply to Ciurlionis

Duplicity on you side: you consider several people Lithuanian despite admitting that they spoke Polish and at the same deny the right to other people to call themselves Polish despite them speaking in Russian.
Nothing surprising in Lithuanian propaganda.

"Russian signs": we have them for Russian tourists, as well as in German for German tourists in places with no German minority, while in Lithuania you get a fine for having Polish signs for the local inhabitants.

"what Żwirbloic stands for in polish" It does not have to stand for anything, exactly like Landsbergis in Lithuanian or Miller in Polish.
In today's EU people define themselves by free association with the culture, not by being "pure blood", what is important only for those missing Nazi times.

Rusgaudas in reply to zerwikaptur

Vilnius was a capital of Lithuania before it expanded towards all the Rus' lands. There is no reason why it should not remain one once Lithuanian borders have squeezed back to the territory more or less resembling the one of the early days of GDL without all the Slavonic lands.

With your logic Ukrainians can claim Krakow just because they were a significant part of the population of the Crown.

Ciurlionis in reply to zerwikaptur

Ok, then Warszawa is also Belarussian city and Krakow - Lithuanian, because it was also their capitals. Agree? So leave for Poznan and give Lithuanians Krokuva and Belarussians Варшава then :D

Ciurlionis in reply to zerwikaptur

So then they speak Russian and call themselves Poles, they just desperately need surnames in Polish and street names in Polish. Are You kidding me? Yes, You are. :DDDD

So You call indigenous people of Vilnius region, who speak Russian, tourists? Lol, again. Thank You for saving the day :)))

Read again. People in Šalčininkai and Vilnius districts speak mostly Russian, not Polish.
Compare. There are 4,8% of Russians 6,7% Poles in Lithuania and there were 27,026 pupil in Russian schools in 2005 and only 18,392 in Polish. Also, during 2001 census, only 79% of Poles declared Polish as their mother tongue- the figure, gradually decreasing from 96.8% in 1959, not to mention in Šalčininkai and Vilnius districts more pupil learn at Lithuanian schools that Polish, although in the towns and villages there are schools of both languages, that means parents choose freely. ;)

zerwikaptur in reply to Rusgaudas


It was less, that the Lithuanian problem in the beginning of the 20th century.

Ukrainians did not manage to constitute a significant/prevailing part of the population of Kraków and environs and connect that territory with Ukraine by a contiguously populated area. In any case, the capital of Poland is Warsaw, not Kraków, for your information.

zerwikaptur in reply to Ciurlionis

All the young Lithuanians from Lithuania are kindly welcome to migrate to Kraków area. If they decide to obtain Polish passports then Kraków can become a bilingual city. We are not a discriminatory country like Lithuania.
I simply wonder what will happen to the Lithuania's population after that exodus?

zerwikaptur in reply to Ciurlionis

Parent can choose freely? It is the Lithuanian govt. that is planting the schools with Lithuanian as the language of instruction at the same time not providing enough money to education in Polish, sometime outrightly denying the right to create new schools or nurseries with Polish.
The new education law explicitly says that if there is no enough pupils and some schools classes have to be closes, the class with Lithuanian language of instruction has to be kept. So where is the free choice? A choice like in chauvinistic pre-war Lithuania or under communism - your ideal Lithuanian state of affairs.
79% Poles is still around 180 thousand people that you are denying the right to have names in Polish.

Rusgaudas in reply to zerwikaptur

I sense double standards here - what about Wroclaw and Szczecin then? If we employ your logic here, the Polish claim to those cities holds no chance.

For Vilnius please read again - it was a capital of Lithuania even before expansion eastwards, when the country was as close to the national state as it would get in middle ages. It is only natural that when the Lithuanian state was reborn - no other city would be considered as a capital even for a second. You can settle the city with Martians if you like, but once the Lithuanians are back in business - they would go and make their capital in Vilnius.

zerwikaptur in reply to Rusgaudas

Double standards? What double standards? Wilno in Lithuania (or better say Lithuanian SSR at that time) and Stettin in Poland (communist at that time) was a result of Stalin deciding about expansion of his internal empire (Soviet Union) and external one (satellite countries like Poland). He could have given Wilno to Belarussian SSR as a compensation for Białystok and give Kaliningrad to Lithuania , if it had suited his purposes better.
"but once the Lithuanians are back in business - they would go and make their capital in Vilnius" One of the best jokes I have seen recently, I tell you.
Red Army gave it to you, on your own you could not hold it even in the beginning of the 20th century.


Could any of you please answer why the ethnic Polish minority in Lithuania that (apparently) defends its right to Polish language so actively, is actually using Russian as their conversational language most of the time?

And also could some Polish people think about the social and economic integration. For a matter of fact, majority of this minority actually perform low skilled jobs from generation to generation (bus drivers, builers, cleaner, plumbers and etc).

Its easy to sit at a computer and babble about somebody's else fortune, but then COULD you please suggest how else would it be posible to enable the Polish minority in Lithuania to escape this vicious circle?

Jay.Z in reply to Gedeminne

Only low skilled jobs? Hmmm, that's very interesting... :-)
Anyway, young generation of Lithuanian Poles should leave that xenophobic country behind and emigrate to Poland, as our economy is doing well and the future prospects are not too bad either. Besides, Poland should offer more job opportunities for our folks from Lithuania than immigrants from e.g. Ukraine.

Jay.Z in reply to Internautas

If that happens, it'll be purely Lithuanian fault, as I believe the majority of Lithuanian Poles feel more emotionally related to Lithuania/Litwa (where their ancestors have been living for centuries) than Poland.

Besides, if happened it might appear to be 'pyrrhic victory' for Lithuania in relation to your demographic problems. But, that wouldn't bother me anymore whatsoever. :-)

Gedeminne in reply to Jay.Z

I completely agree with you, you should try to promote this idea amogst your folk :). The issue is that its not that simple, the Lithuanian Poles are not accepted with open hands by native Poles, quite the contrary from what I know.
Anyways, Poles have been living there for centuries, they settled there and not going to move as it would be equally as difficult for them to integrate in Poland as well. They have been living outside Poland for centuries and have largely assimilated with the russian minority.

They have the full rights (as ordinary citizens) in Lithuania as its their country and, I think, (as an ethnic minority) they should be allowed the right not to study Lithuanian language if that satisfies their lust for indentity and etc. All that i'm saying is that such behaviour prevents them from opportunities in their home/native country in which they lived and will live for generations to come by their own choice!

gVic in reply to Internautas

"Besides, Poland should offer more job opportunities for our folks from Lithuania than immigrants from e.g. Ukraine."

There is nothing about Lithuanian or Ukrainian economy here.. Where can you see that?

As far as I understand, Jay.Z wanted to say that, as Poland needs labour force from eastern countries, we should focus on and promote rather migration of minority Poles from neighbouring countries than Ukrainians, Belarussians and so on.

Gedeminne in reply to Jay.Z



gVic in reply to Gedeminne

one of very few non-biased, reasonable and open-minded voices! :)

anyways, Poles should learn Lithuanian language in order to integrate with the rest of the society and to get good jobs and to help by this gesture for Lithuanians to accept them more.


There is indeed tension in Lithuanian-Polish relations. Poland is blocking a variety of Lithuanian infrastructure projects. Refused to cooperate, for example, in the project to build a new nuclear power plant with other Baltic countries and Japanese corporation Hitachi. The Poles instead are negotiating with the Russian energy group to cooperate in Kaliningrad Nuclear Power Plant project. Because of tensions some other projects are collapsing too. There is something to worry about. But what are the reasons for this?

Is that "W" letter in the Polish surname? Clearly, the law on spelling of names needs to be changed, but who will believe that this may interfere with nuclear power project. There must be some other reasons.

In Lithuania all minorities (Russians, Jews, Germans, and Belarusians) are subject to the same education law except the Poles. Poles in Lithuania have more schools than any other Polish minority populated country in the world. There are about 60 of such schools. Those schools teach exclusively in Polish and the official Lithuanian language is taught only as a separate subject. New law on education has found that in order to improve proficiency in the Lithuanian language the Lithuanian language should be used in some of the history and geography lessons especially when it relates to Lithuania. Is that reason for regional projects to collapse?

Such are and other “reasons”.

Poland deliberately increases tension, but does not name the actual reasons. They even provoke more tension. With the help of ministry of R. Sikorski there has been published a propagandistic, provocative, allegedly historical brochure “Ponary”. Why Poland needs tension with Lithuania and why it’s blocking cooperative projects? That’s the question that needs to be answered.

zerwikaptur in reply to Mindis

I am sorry to hear that you do no like the publication of the brochure about Ponary. Do you support what happened there, murder of several thousand people with cooperation of some Lithuanian formations?

"Poles in Lithuania have more schools than any other Polish minority populated country in the world."
Poles in Lithunia can be only compared to Poles in Belarus in terms of geographical continuity, size and history. There are different expectations concerning minority rights from an EU member (Lithuania) and a country that does not even have a democratic system.

"why it’s blocking cooperative projects?"
Why should Poland waste money on such initiatives? We need to construct a nuclear power station on our own, not to import electricity from Lithuania or Kaliningrad region.

E car in reply to Jay.Z

Poland should be ashamed of many things probably in course of history too but it is not a subject for Lithuanian Foreign Office. That this not happening within Europe many many years.

zerwikaptur in reply to E car

Isn't that great to hear from a Lithunian that he thinks that he has the right to dictate the Polish Foreign Office what to publish? What a fresh point of view compared to all his compatriots who think that Poland should not interfere when the rights of Poles in Lithuania are not respected.

Retas Petras in reply to Jay.Z

Just imagine if some official insitutions would publish about collaboration of Armija Krjowa (AK) with nazis and comitting many acts of genocide in Vilnius? About pogroms of jews just after ocupation of Vilnius by Zheligowski? Let"s learn your history, dear polish neo-nazi.

R E in reply to Retas Petras

Is this what they teach you in schools?
As I read, I am appalled by the depth of lies about our history you spread. AK fought 3 enemies, while your "stribai" collaborated with whomever appeared to be winning at the moment. Didn't they tell you in school how Lithuanians let soviet army through it territory when Hitler attacked Poland in 1939 from the other side? For "40 silver pieces" - yes, you were paid for that, too.

zerwikaptur in reply to R E

Retas Petras is trying to cover up the history of Lithuanians cooperating with Bolsheviks and Nazi Germany by name calling Poland and Poles Nazi. I wonder if he a typical product of a history lessons in Lithuanian schools? If yes then I simply think that Poland should pay for the lessons of proper history in Polish minority schools in Lithuania so the children are exposed to an unbiased version of account, not that chauvinistic rubbish like in hist posts.

guest-ialwwnn in reply to zerwikaptur

According to the "history" promulgated by others in this response, the Vilnius are had a minority of Lithuanians in it, and was a majority Polish. You would then contend that a population of 2% Lithuanians would rush in, usurp the majority of Poles, and eliminate the Jewish population without the explicit complicity of Poles? How NAIVE.
I guess they could have just put down their beer glasse and overrun Poland in its' whole, also.
Pardon me while I laugh about your little ignorant dreams.


I am Lithuanian I here are some my thoughts on it.
Polish letters and names should be allowed to use in documents like passports or signs in the eastern part of Lithuania (where Poles are majority).
However, Lithuanian goverment should stick with a new education plan. The last time I was in polish-speaking area I could not have a single conversation in Lithuanian. Nobody knew how to make a normal sentence. And shouldn't be happening.
As for the whole context, it seems that the whole conflict comes from historical fears. Lithuanians are afraid of Polisish language becoming supreme over Lithuanian, as it happened once in XVII - XIX centuries and almost made the language to vanish. Moreover, Russians tried to put a ban on Lithuanian language in late XIX century.
It seems that Poles are still afraid of genocide, which was carried out by Germans and Russians. And every single action whether is bad or good is welcomed by fears that it will suppress their rights.

All in all, Lihuanians shouldn't be worried that their language will vanish, as Poles shouldn't think that new genocide will be carried out. And finally, a few more remarks. Scenario like this (huge diplomatic tensions between Lithuania and Poland) has been stated in Kremlin's propagandists' books. Both nations should remember who has been,who is and who always be their enemy No. 1. Polish government should stop supporting V. Tomasevski, Polish minority leader. There have been many concerns in Lithuania that he is Moscow's tool. And R.Sikorsky looks like he is driven by emotions. That is the last thing we need. For instance, leaflets for Polish minority which were supported by him expressed ideas, which he knew would be greated with great contraversy in Lithuania. Why would you cause more tensions whith sometthing which bringes no benefits for Poland?
Peace :)

zerwikaptur in reply to srsl

Initially quite an interesting post, though at the end you request that Poland stand back and waits for the actions of Lithuania. That was the approach practiced for several years (so called "good relationships" between Poland and Lithuania) and did not bring any good to Poles of Lithuania, quite the opposite. No solution of property restitution, bilingual names, gerrymandering of voting districts,etc.
"Both nations should remember who has been,who is and who always be their enemy No. 1. " Looking at the Lithuanian politics I think for Lithuania it is Poland.

srsl in reply to zerwikaptur

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Indeed first step should be taken by Lithuanian government. In my opinion, it should be allowing Polish signs and letters. Then Poland government should do something like stop supporting Tomasevski.
Problem with Lithuanian politics is that some idiotic, nationalistic-chauvinistic politics in parliament (Seimas). President, PM (whose son works for Google in Poland) and the cavinet would not oppose pro-Polish laws. However, the parliament is a different case. The ruling conservative party has some MPs called "the Taliban" (I suppose Poland has something like that as well). They fall to the category of idiots. Moreover, this case theyhave from opposition because different parties have different motives:
1. Socialists are quite corrupt so they have only one goal. Get in power. And critisising government and PM is a very good way to do it.
2. Law and Order. This is a party of impeached president. Quite nationalistic, probably funded and supported from Moscow. Had many cases and scandals of corruption. Absolute idiots.
3. Labour party. Toy of Kremlin. When the leader of party had a case for fraud and corruption in court fled to Moscow. This fact tells a lot.
Those politics I mentioned are equally nationalits as Jay.Z here. Some strange mix of chauvinism, stupid emotions and self-pride.

zerwikaptur in reply to srsl

Ok, then I would agree with you to a large extent. When the rights of Poles in Lithuania are respected (not only the "w" letter, but also property, voting districts, etc.) I would be very happy for the Polish government not to spend anytime on those issues when in discussions with Lithuanian government. Concerning the support for Tomaszewski: to me success of Tomaszewski is a matter of unresolved issues like those I mentioned above. If they are solved then Poles in Lithuania can vote differently (I have no clue how they would vote). After all it is Lithuanian citizens who vote for Tomaszewski, not the Polish government.

We also have various parties in Poland that show more or less various levels of incompetence depending on the issue. What Lithuanian policies have managed to achieve is practically unite them on the matter of Polish-Lithuanian relations. It is a real achievement, I am dead serious about this.

I do not understand why you see Jay.Z as a nationalist. He is probably as fed up with the problems of Poles in Lithuania as other commentators from the Polish side. If the problems disappeared, we would not comment here at all. What for?
The vision of the Commonwealth on the Lithuanian and Polish sides are different and probably will never reconcile among people who have some historical knowledge.

guest-ilwwanl in reply to srsl

"The last time I was in polish-speaking area I could not have a single conversation in Lithuanian."

I don't know where you were - maybe in Belarus ?
I visited my family and some of them finished high school / their Lithuanian is good otherwise they couldn't get job or finish education. They conversated, translated for us some Lithuanian text in Vilnius/Wilno, helped in shoops, restaurants etc !!!
Some of them speaks four langueges (Lithuanian, Polish, Russian, English). Have you spoken to young or very old generation ? (old generation use mostly Polish and Russian)

I have huge sentiment to GDL and Lithuania but ...
When you said about Politicians - why you have never introduced any Lithuanians responsible for present situation ? G.Songaila, V.Landsbergis who established new property near Vilnius (but his own land was near Kaunas) etc Who stopped using Minority Act (when old one was not valid anymore) - Lithuanian Parlament! Who added new Education Act (in small cities/villiges where will not be enough young people only minority school will be closed) - Lithuanian Parlament and President ! Who rejected at Parlament act of using original names - Lithuanian politicians.

srsl in reply to zerwikaptur

What concers do you have about property and voting districts? Specially about property? Lithuanians and Poles had absolutely same problems, and bureacratic nightmares with getting back your relatives lands or houses.
Tomaszewski rides mass hysteria. That is why he is dangerous. Like the saying of his that Lithuanians should integrate in Lithuania and not Polish.
Jay.Z twists the true and facts as it would useful for him. Plus he has that mass hysteria thing like Tomaszewski. Too many emotions, too less logic.

zerwikaptur in reply to srsl

Property rights: Lithuanian govt. should provide enough data to dispel any claims of discrimination. I mean they should make data public (and protect the identity of people applying for property restitution by by providing information only about region of the country like Šalčininkai/Soleczniki and maybe about municipality but definitely not about the person's name) for so anyone can analyze it and see if the restitution rates in Vilnius regions are really different than in other parts of Lithuania and who gets the property there: people from that region or other Lithuania regions.
Voting districts: any changes should be consulted with the minorities so there is no impression that the changes serve to dilute the voting power of minorities.
The same with education: if the changes were spread over a few years then the Polish reaction were more muted.
Jay.Z uses various conversations styles depending on the interlocutor. I do the same. I will leave this part of the further conversation as he can defend himself easily.

srsl in reply to guest-ilwwanl

It happened in Salcininkai and Eisiskes. People were between 30 and 60 years old, I guess. If your family is from Vilnius, it is a bit different case. Remember it's a capital, richest region and more open minded.
What is GDL?
Prove your statement with Landsbergis and Songaila with article or something. Plus Songaila falls into category of idiots I mentioned before.
Also give information on Minority Act and what concerns you.
Schools are being closed down all over Lithuania. My old school (in the second largest town Kaunas/Kowno) was closed because there were not enough students. If you want to keep your schools open, you should ask Polish government for money. You know that Lithuania has problems with budgetand can't afford those expenses. In general, you should stop thinking that school closing is against Polish.

Jay.Z in reply to zerwikaptur


Thank you, zerwikaptur. I couldn't have explained it better.

It's so comfortable to put a 'nationalist' label if one has little or no counter-arguments to present. But, we ain't buyin' it... :-))

R E in reply to srsl

What is being escalated in lithuanian media about the education reform is only part of the truth. Very few people have read its actual text and the media rides the wave.
Poles are not protesting against the language. They emphasize everywhere that they want to learn it and will continue to learn it. In fact, there is a very limited supply of Polish textbooks (math, physics, chemistry, biology), so kids are already studying from the Lithuanian ones since at least 10 years ago.
What is generating the outcry - the time frame - all of the sudden, after 20 years of independence when there was "no problem", government only gives 2 years to prepare for the graduation exam, when Polish kids will be tested as native Lithuanian speakers (who had 12 years to read all the literature and study all the grammar). In order to get up to speed with that, they will have to spend less time preparing for all other subjects - the ones really important for their future studies. Remember, school graduation marks are used when competing for the universities (where scholarships are more limited every year). We are concerned that with such "reform" kids will get worse marks not only in Lithuanian, but other subjects as well. Telling somebody that all this is for the integration sake and better chances is a blunt lie. Better chances, but only for Lithuanian students - limiting chances of their Polish and Russian competition for next few years.
Another thing is almost never mentioned in the media - about school closures - if there are two schools in any given neighbourhood and not enough students, the one to be closed is the ethnic minority school. Regardless of the student numbers. Example - 5 kids in Lithuanian school, 55 in Polish - guess which one will be closed? How would you like that? Naturally, this is all very boring and does not look attractive on the first page of paper. So nobody is listening.
And good professional journalists, who would be able to enlighten ALL sides of the issue, are extinct.

John S.74 in reply to srsl

As a Pole, I don't think that Polish letters should be allowed in Lithuania. I have lived abroad for quite a while and the lack of Polish letters really isn't anything to cry about. Language nazis will lose to English anyhow, so this is just a silly turf war that will not do anyone any good.
Lithuania is a free state, it is part of the EU. In the EU, if we do not like the state we live in, we can do a number of things - speak out and vote, or leave. We do not have a right to squabble and interfere with internal policies of states in which we do not reside unless they limit our freedom to do business with them.
As to the comments below about who helped whom.. Please remember that the way people act is only a reflection of how they are treated. Hate cuts both ways and is a universal evil.

srsl in reply to John S.74

@Jan G
Finally someone who is ready for discussion, not argument :)
Actually I really think Polish letters should be allowed in official documents and signs. There is nothing worng with that. Also it is not a interferance in Lithuania's internal affairs. It could be a gesture from Lithuania to show it care for its citizens and a gesture for Polish government to continue dialogue.
However, Lithuania should not give up on education. I think for Lithuania's Poles should have the same system as Poland's Lithuanians. There is only one reason: so could Lithuania's Polish people had two native languages: Polish and Lithuanian. If they could speak perfectly in both languages, both states could benefit from that.
P.S. Since today is Lithuania's Independence Day, congratulations to all my nation in the world :) And there were rumors in Lithuanian press that Polish ultras and skinheads might come to Vilnius today. The last thing we need is a spark under the barrel of gunpowder.


The article is obviously written partially. Lithuanians are shown as the ones who cause the problems between two states. The reality is very simple: during Katchinsky ruling time our relations were really good ant getting better. Now the Poland is ruled by anti-Lithuanian forces. Obviously the only ones who are benefited are the Russians.

P.S. why do you use question marks in the word occupied ?

guest-ilwwanl in reply to Internautas

Not true - only "official" relatian looks good. No one problem was solved during Kaczyński's time. Even more - do you remember his last visit Lithuania just before his death (March 2010) ? What happened at Sejmas ? Exactly the same day new act of possibilty to write names in original form was rejected! Lithuanian President promised to open discussion in local Parlament till end 2010 and ... absolutely nothing was done. Moreover validity of "good" Minority Act expired. New one never introduced ... Lithuanian Authorities replied to Knut Vollebeak "we don't need it anymore" !


Sadly, but relationships between Lithuania and Poland has considerably deteriorated in recent years. Especially after strange plane crash death in Russia of former Poland's President Lech Kaczynski... It's obvious, that some of Poland's recent demands are illogical, like street names in polish, surnames in polish alphabet (when Lithuania has just one official language Lithuanian and alphabet differs a lot, majority of Lithuanians couldn't even pronounce it in polish language). It seems there are spacial people who are deliberately trying to cause a conflict between these two countries...

guest-ilwwewa in reply to zerwikaptur

no problem ... Of course - Lithuanians can have Polish,Russian, English and etc. street names. I understand that f.e. in Finland some street names are in Swedish, but just because second official language is Swedish. But tell me why in Lithuania we need polish alphabet and street names?

cegorach in reply to guest-ilwwewa

"illogical, like street names in polish, surnames in polish alphabet"

What is illogical about such demands - in fact it is a normal thing in several countries all around Europe.

From memory it takes place in Germany (e.g Sorbian minority), the Czech Republic (e.g. Polish populated regions), Poland (e.g. German, Lithuanian, Belorus, Ukrainian mnority populated towns and villages as well as Kashubian regions which choose so) and so on.

There is nothing in those "demands" what is not already provided in many other countries, also in Poland.


Ok, here's a few more loose personal thoughts...

(1) Dear Lithuanians, your great-grandfathers (engaged in Lithuanian national revival in 19th century) have done harm to you by implying that you, Baltic Lithuanians, are the descendants of citizens of Grand Duchy of Lithuania (GDL).

Well, you're not. The countries that can claim much higher level of kinship to the GDL than present-day Lithuania with dominant Baltic Lithuanian ethnicity, are Belarus and Poland.

Belarus - because the GDL was a multi-national state, but with main Slavic ethnicity. The official language in early GDL was Ruthenian, as those duke families (Gediminids, etc.) were Ruthenian.

Poland - as the GDL nobility by and large chose to polonise themselves, as they considered Polish culture and language as more prestigious. The descendants of the likes of Radziwiłł, Tyszkiewicz, Sapieha, etc. have been living in Poland (apart from those, who along the course of recent history had emigrated to France or other Western European countries).

(2) The level of personal rights granted to Lithuanian minority in Poland and the Polish minority in Lithuania is far from equal. Apart from the right to have their IDs issued with names in Lithuanian, they enjoy the right e.g. to put up double-language signs in their towns/villages in Suwałki Region, and can use Lithuanian as the second language in Puńsk municipality, where there are a dominant ethnic group.

In this regard Lithuania is in breach of the bilateral PL-LT treaty signed off in 1994, in addition to the fact that they (LT) haven't ratified the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

More on the topic e.g. here:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_minorities_in_Poland
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingual_communes_in_Poland
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_minority_in_Poland
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Charter_for_Regional_or_Minority_L...

(3) While referring to Poles and Polish claims/grievances by calling them 'nazi', Baltic Lithuanians may attempt to divert attention from their shameful collaboration with Nazi Germany and the participation in massacres of Jewish and Polish civilians.

More on that topic e.g. here:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_W...
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ypatingasis_b%C5%ABrys
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponary_massacre

Nimrod337 in reply to Jay.Z

Polish kings were Lithuanian. Poland was, in effect, a vassal state of Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Didn't read the rest of your drivel, sorry.
You use the expression "Baltic Lithuanians" extensively. Care to explain what is a non-Baltic Lithuanian? Be creative.

gVic in reply to Nimrod337

That is not true. At the very beginning, Duke of GDL to become a king of Poland had to gain acceptance of Polish nobles first.

Later on, it became more like a custom as Polish nobles treated this as mean to maintain fragile union between (often conflicted) two states.

Don Pedro in reply to Jay.Z

Gediminds were ruthenians? You are joking? Do you know any case when duke of lith. considers himself as a ruthenian?


Ruthenian language wasn't official language as we know understand. This language was used for correspondence with ruthenian dukes/cities/administration. Yes, it was adopted, but actually
it was used only in Ruthenian lands, not in the rest of GDL. latin language was the main language like in Poland. Relatively, ~ 1500 - to 1650 you can found many lithuanian literature in lithuanian language. For instance, Albertas Gostautas, Valimaitis, and others promoted the application of lithuanian language and many noblemen were strictly opposite to usage of ruthenian language.
By the way, there were many ruthenian who worked in administration thus the impact on understanding why language became more attractive is quite clear.

Statutes was written in ruthenian language only because that majority of population in GDL was ruthenians, but the application of Statutes during court process in ethnical part was solely lithuanian. It was like a custom. You can find information in internet if you are interested in.

when we are speaking about who are descendants of citizens of GDL, first, we must answer to a question - WHO created GDL. The answer is clear.

HMacmillan in reply to Nimrod337

Well I am not surprised, when confronted with the truth you chose to ignore it. Your ancestors weren’t that reticent about adopting the Polish language and cultural practices as their own, including all your great families, which incidentally all consider themselves to be Polish now.


The funny thing is that Poland declares it funds lithuanian minority schools with 50% more funds, yet most of those schools lack books and can't survive without financial help from Lithuania which was 300k litas last year.


Think why Lithuania needs to discrimninate polish speaking minorities? whats the point? why we need that? Poland just want power in Lithuania and they blowing this bubble..


It is important to note in this discussion that internally in Poland, Polish media, etc. Lithuania and relations with this country is almost no issue. From time to time there is some article saying that Lithuanians are not so friendly that we Poles use to think, and... thats all. What I mean is that modern Lithuania barely exists in public dispute in Poland, there is only historic and favorauble image of Grand Duchy. Maybe in Mazury or Podlaskie regions relations with Lithuania are more tight. Anyway, because modern Lithuania is in general awareness some unknown small country in the north-east it is very little presure internally in Poland to fix relations with this country.
Last but not least, this problem with spelling, properties, minority is a dozen or so years old... in my opinion it would be still frozen if not Orlen problems with rafinery in Lithuania. From that point real money and real bussiness started. And real problems after that. If Orlen wouldn't buy it (what it shouldn't do) then Lithuania still would be outside of real Polish politics.

zerwikaptur in reply to Nimrod337

You forgot to add:
So we, Lithuanians can continue our discriminatory policies against Polish minority. And do not forget make similarly half-baked investment like the oil refinery - we still need your Polish money to be wasted on: nuclear power plant and power and gas connectors.

Nimrod337 in reply to zerwikaptur

No, quit lying. Nobody is discriminating against Poles. Poles are treated BETTER than any other minority in Lithuania. Poland should stop systematic assimilation of Lithuanians in Poland. Poland should also stop closing down Lithuanian schools(while demanding that Lithuania keeps open Polish schools that are nearly empty LOL)

Why would Lithuanians give a damn about that refinery? First we sold it to Americans, then Americans sold it to Russians, then Orlen bought it. Orlen bought it because they saw it profitable. They didnt manage to make it profitable? Your own fault.

Oh and when you talk about gas connections... its EU money LOL. Lithuania is buying a floating LNF terminal anyways, no need to deal with Poles on this issue. You dont want a share in that plant? I dont want another nuclear plant on our soil either.

zerwikaptur in reply to Nimrod337

Again, typical misrepresentation of facts from a defender of discriminatory policies of Lithuania against Poles in Lithuania:
1. Unlike in Lithuania, the local schools in Poland are a business of the local authorities (the money for the schools with minority languages is higher by 50% in any case) so the local authorities make the decisions, unlike in Lithuania, where the central governments plants the schools with Lithuanian language in regions inhabited in majority by Poles.
2. Orlen investment was a clear political decision, pushed by Lech Kaczyński. It was also a clear Lithuanian political decision to make the life of Orlen in Lithuania more difficult by disassembling the railtrack allowing getting cheaper supplies).
3. Gas connection: 73% of costs to be borne by Poland and the same time Lithuania is obtaining the LNG terminal on its own? Waste of money to Poland, nothing else.

Nimrod337 in reply to zerwikaptur

1. And WHAT? You're now expecting Lithuania to switch to your system of funding? A region in Poland can easily have as many people as the whole Lithuania - why'd we even need a separate set of authorities for these matters in every region? Anyhow, Polish Lithuanians are protesting that they are now getting more classes in Lithuanian language, but at the same time Lithuanians in Poland are getting the same number of classes in Polish. Assimilation you say?

2. Why's Orlen even owned by the Government? The railroad is being/or has been already rebuilt. This is from 2010(use google trans) http://verslas.delfi.lt/automoto/article.php?id=30183353&categoryID=174757
Also dont forget that hordes of Lithuanians were/are shopping in Poland due to favourable exchange rates, but you make it sound like poor Poland is just pumping money into Lithuania and gets nothing back. If Orlen Lietuva makes a profit you take it back to Poland, remember?

3. Dont know/care. We'll get our gas via LNG terminal, but Latvia and Estonia? I dunno. Where you pulled that 73% from?

EU hasnt even said a word about it yet.

zerwikaptur in reply to Nimrod337

1. Local level is a level of "gmina" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmina. currently there are around 2.5K such in Poland or "powiat"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powiat (almost 400 in Poland).
You see, you do not know what you are talking about.
If Lithuania spends extra money on the centrally funded schools in Vilnius area it means it can give more money to Polish minorities schools.
2. After pressure only.
If the exchange rate went the other direction the Poles would shop in Lithuania. You can observe the same at other borders, where the flow direction changes (like Polish-German border) depending on the exchange rate
3. http://biznes.onet.pl/polaczenie-gazowe-polska-litwa-bedzie-kosztowac-47...
I know you do not care, you simply want to be a free-rider, like in NATO.

Nimrod337 in reply to zerwikaptur

1. It can or it should? It should if theres a need, but the fact is Polish schoools are already better funded than their Lithuanian counterparts. I know what I'm talking about, you don't. You listen to your very "unbiased" media and you think you know whats going on in Lithuania. Laughable. The conflict was never about money, it was about more classes being taught in Lithuanian which they call "discrimination"

2. Hurr durr almighty Poland applied all of its force to make Lithuania rebuild a rail line. You dont even know why it was removed in the first place, and you'll believe whatever your Lituanophobe media feeds into your brainwashed head. We had much better business relationship going with the Russians, so I wish nobody had rebuilt that railline and Orlen got out and we'd never have to hear your moans again. After all, all this fuss about minorities was just used as a leverage for championing Orlen's interests in Lithuania(namely: Lithuania refused to sell Klaipedos Nafta due to its strategic importance to us, and then Polish politicians intensified their filth spilling on Lithuania.)

" flow direction changes (like Polish-German border)"

changes direction? oh rly? its cheaper for Poles to shop in Germany, but its cheaper for Lithuanians to shop in Poland? now tell me how that is even possible. Litas is pegged to the Euro.

3. Oh snap, forgive us for not spending 2% of GDP on military after suffering the worst recession of ANY country in the world. We'll be fine. Hows your free riding with EU funds going? Its amazing how you moan how much Poland would have to pay for the gas link, when your infrastructure buildup is financed by EU funds anyways.

More arrogance, more "holier than thou" attitude please. You're good at it.

zerwikaptur in reply to Nimrod337

1. You only confirm that you did no understand the difference between the level of decision making about schooling between Poland and Lithuania. Initially you stated:
"A region in Poland can easily have as many people as the whole Lithuania - why'd we even need a separate set of authorities for these matters in every region?" while in fact the decisions are made at lower level

2. " flow direction changes (like Polish-German border)" Flow of shoppers changes over years depending on the exchange rate changes.

I am happy to see an open admission from at least Lithuanian that they prefer cooperation with Russia. Leave EU and join Eurasian Union then. You would fit well there.

3. EU funds are well spent, usually on imports from old EU, so I see that as a kind of Keynesian demand stimulation for the old EU (especially Germany).
"Oh snap, forgive us for not spending 2% of GDP on military after suffering the worst recession of ANY country in the world. We'll be fine." So, when are you planning to join the Eurasion Union? I am sure Russia would take you gladly and offer to forever protect you from those Poles you simply cannot stand.

ZemstaUFO in reply to Nimrod337

Yo, Nimrod,

Lithuanians shop in Poland not only because of the exchange rate, but simply because of the price/quality ratio. Your sausages (desreles or something) must contain 7% of meat to be called so. In any Lidl in Poland your folks buy Parówki containing 83% of meat for a fraction of the maxima price. Tymbark juice for 2,8 PLN in Poland will be sold by your beloved Maxima for 5-6 Lt. 120% margin in a supermarket ;) No wait, not margin - 120 % difference between Polish and Lithuanian supermarket. I'm not getting into butter, meat or anything else...


So hi,
First of all, we all should know, that Lithuanian polish people, which are leaving in Šalčininkai (where are leaving majority of them) , are more speaking Russian than polish. This fact had seen one polish journalist. She wrote an article and published about that in Poland, and after few hours it was deleted. Why?
Secondly, Lithuanians a trying to save their nation, language, because Russia and Poland were trying to destroy Lithuanians identify for many years by not letting use national language (1795-1914 Russia)insisting them to admit other language, tradition, culture and colonised (Russia and Poland). After admitting other countries cultural, language, Lithuanians saved their as a nation identify. Lithuania is still young country and it is obvious why this country is trying to save her old (very old) language and culture.
So i have a question, how would you be acting if your country (having independence for about 20 years and was under occupation for long time, capital was taken illegal way) is threaten by loosing one thing that they care about most?

guest-ilwwanl in reply to JoanaD

I disagree - most of old generation in Soleczniki use Russian and ... Polish (the same with old Lithuanian generation - Russian in also well known). I had absolutely no problem to communicate with my part of family in Soleczniki and other places in Polish language! Illegal way - are you talking about Memel or close cooperation with Red Army (Soviet Union) 1920,1939 and Nazi Germany 1941-45?

gVic in reply to JoanaD

For a long time Republic of Poland was tolerating hostile attitude of Lithuanian policy makers towards Polish Lithuanian minority admitting that Lithuanian state (and Lithuanian national identity) is young and some longer time is needed before Poland should ask more decidedly about the rights of Polish Lithuanian minority.

It's almost a century since end of WWI. How long yet Lithuania would argue that it's still young and fragile country/nation, so we need to lift expectations about normal attitude towards Polish Lithuanian minority until it's get self-confident?

zerwikaptur in reply to JoanaD

Justification of discrimination by being "small and vulnerable".
In any case, I see no reasons why bilingual road signs are such a danger, unless the whole Lithuanian nation suffers from Polonophobia.

JoanaD in reply to guest-ilwwanl

I agree that they know polish, but between themselves they are talking russian. Speaking about Lithuanians which speak russian in casual day, they are minority. I'm talking about all Lithuanian not one part of country. You say that between LTU and Soviet was close cooperation. i disagree with this statement. There was no close relationship. Russia gave for Lithuania ultimatum, Lithuania accepted it, because what small country could do, when all Europe eyes were on France. If I remember good ultimatum gave Germany (Memel) and Poland as well.

JoanaD in reply to gVic

Do you forget WWII? I remember to you, after that war Lithuania was in USSR hands. In that union was no democracy, where was another ruling system. And after half century Lithuania finally get her independence. In 1990 leaving behind socialism Lithuania become independent country having no experience how to rule. From 1918 till 1926 Lithuania was democratic country from 1926 till 1940 - Authoritarian state. Wow, how much this country has experience how to rule democratic country

guest-ilwwanl in reply to JoanaD

I disagree Lithuanian Army close co-operated with Red Army (even Lithuanian planes were used) and attacked north-east part of Poland 1920 ! Yes, ultimatum gave Nazi Germany before WWII but earlier Lithuania took Memel (it was originally free city) in 1923. Polish ultimatum was forced to establish "standard" diplomatic relation between both countries! Lithuania received Wilno/Vilnius in Oct. 1939 after signing agreement with Soviet Union.

Nimrod337 in reply to zerwikaptur

Hahaha zerwikaptur you're so full of contradictions. I noticed how Polish commentators here feel the need to stress that Lithuania is not important/small/backwards etc etc and how great Poland and everything about it is. Yet you care so deeply whats going on with Russian speaking people who call themselves Poles. Hilarious. Russians accuse everyone of Russophobia, Poles invent imaginary enemies and fight with them... Slavic people are full of surprises.

zerwikaptur in reply to Nimrod337

Usual Lithuanian chauvinistic approach: trying to put a wedge between Poles in Poland and Poles in Lithuania. I have already seen all of these on various threads on this forum:
- Poles in Lithuania are polonised Lithuanians
- Poles in Lithuania are polonised Belarussians
- Poles in Lithuania are polonised Russians
- Poles in Lithuania are backward, so you enlighted Poles in Poland should be ashamed of association with them
- a typical racist obsession with Slavs

Any more in the quiver? So far nothing new.

JoanaD in reply to guest-ilwwanl

Where is the logic, Lithuania in that period was fighting with bolsheviks, so how LTU and bolsheviks could cooperate? If you don't know just don't say anything, because before WWI Memel was one of the cities of Lithuania, and after Germany had occupied Lithuania, Memel was announced free city. Lithuanians get the part of their country back, because that region always belonged to Lithuania. Vilnius never belonged to Poland. Vilnius was always the heart of Lithuania and when someone took it, it hurt. So it's naturally,why Lithuanians wanted to get their capital back. That agreement with USSR was a chance to stay independent country and get your capital back, just letting USSR army to stay in your country.

gVic in reply to JoanaD


Dear JoanaD, I think that there is no need to remind us, the commentators of this topic, the basic historic facts ;). Please don't forget that authoritanian state (Voldemaras & co.) was ruled by Lithuanians itself and I see no reason to exclude this period from the time of self-governing of Lithuanian nation.

About communist period. Well, who was the members of Communist Party in Lithuania? Weren't they Lithuanians also? Of course, the dictate of Moscow is beyond any discussion here.

What I mean is that there is highest time for Lithuanian politician to admit - now we are finally stable and self-confident state and it is the time to treat Polish minority according to European standards (despite we do not like the way Lithuanian Poles act and despite many of their disadvantages - Lithuanian Poles are not spotless, for sure).

zerwikaptur in reply to JoanaD

" because before WWI Memel was one of the cities of Lithuania":
an example of living in a parallel universe as before WWI Memel was in Prussia/Germany.

"Lithuania in that period was fighting with bolsheviks, so how LTU and bolsheviks could cooperate"
in a protocol to the Lithuanian-Russian/Bolshevik traety Lithuania agrees to allow Bolshvik troops to freely move through the Lithuania's territory

JoanaD in reply to gVic

I don't know do you know Lithuania history well, but I know, and I don't see no point arguing about history anymore because it is worthless. I am Lithuania polish and I see everything what is here going on. This all discussion is because of Tomaševski and his seek to have power in Lithuania. He was against the polish school learning reform. He raised all problems between these to countries. But did he think about young generations. There is a big generation gap between him and kids. Did he know what they need? Did someone ask what they think about learning more in lithuanian language. No. He thinks he know what is best for them.

gVic in reply to JoanaD


Dear JoanaD, you are not telling the truth. Vilnius was capital of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, a huge country stretching from Baltic Sea to Crimea. Only a very small part of it was ethnically Lithuanian. Lithuanians were good warriors and they conquered neighbouring areas eastward and southward but most of inhabitans of those new lands were of Slavic origin (Ruthenians). Lithuanians were the ruling elite of the country but most of people were Slavic.

You can not derive a straight connection: Vilnius was capital of multinational Grand Duchy of Lithuania so automatically it has to be the capital of ethnical Republic of Lithuania (remember that also Belarussian used to claim Grand Duchy of Lithuania as their legacy).

As I love this city (Vilnius), imho that is good it is now capital and grow rapidly (instead of being provincional city of Poland).
But looking for the explanation that Vilnius (after WWI) should be capital of Republic of Lithuania because of Grand Duchy of Lithuania's legacy is neither fully true nor undisputable (not mentioning such complex issues like ethinicity of its inhabitans in 1910s).

gVic in reply to JoanaD


Dear JoanaD, you are citizen of Lithuanian Republic. No one force you to vote for local Polish party. If you think that any of mainstream Lithuanian party fits your outlook more or can secure your future better, vote for them. I see no problem with that.

JoanaD in reply to gVic

You right that Vilnius was capital of Grand dutchy of Lithuania, but you forget that all that dutchy was started creating in Baltic tribes territories (on these territories is still Lithuania) and Vilnius wasn't created somewhere in south or east, but in that small united Lithuania


The sad thing is that nobody cares about the facts, but everybody is listening to the one shouting the loudest. The fact is that the Lithuanian minority mostly living in the north of Poland can't even dream about reciprocal conditions that the Polish minority in Lithuania is enjoying. Writing Lithuanian names in Polish passports, being represented well on local municipalities’ level, receiving education in their mother tongue, public signs in Lithuanian, you name it. It’s about hypocrisy.

zerwikaptur in reply to Swed

Members of Lithuanian minority living in Piland can get the names in Lithunian in the Polish documents (they decide if they want to), the minority is represented on the local municipalities level, has public signs in Lithuanian, the schools with Lithuanian as the language of instruction receive 50% more money than similar schools with Polish as the language of instruction. The summary of your post is: Lithuanian chauvinistic propaganda.


http://mosthated.ueuo.com/results.php check out the results of an international survey, maybe there's something to it ? :)))

As a lithuanian, I feel that Poland and Latvia are our closest friends no matter of any contemporary disputes fuelled by politicians on both sides in order to gain some politic credits.
On the other hand, polish nationalism is quite a daunting phenomenon(the common usage of Wilno instead of Vilnius illustrates this point quite weel). We feel that Poles are trying to claim the rights on a part of our country (Vilnius region) and the direct interference in politics as well as the "Polish Cards" are probably the best example. Of course, we have our own share of it as well, but lithuania is in a very different position, we are not a 40 million country, so we feel that we have to stay tough in order to be heard and recognized.
What anoyes me is all that historic babble, that's only history it cannot be changed, its the future that we should be concerned about.

guest-ilwwanl in reply to Gedeminne

If you said Polish nationalism ...
Why in Lithuanian cities/villiges (where is 80-90 % Polish minority) official names cannot be shown in both languages ? In comparison - Poland - places with over 20 % of minority - you can use names in two languages ! Why Lithuanian minority in Poland may use original Lithuanian names/surnames as well as Lithuanian names of shops, restaurants etc ? In comparison - in Lithuania you may receive huge penalty (despite both version Lithanian and Polish are shown). Nobody would like to claim rights to Wilno/Vilnius but minority's rights must be protected as it is in Scandinavia, Hungary and other EU countries ...

ZemstaUFO in reply to Gedeminne

My god... You say Varšuva, we say Wilno - (I know your government prohibits you from seing W so you just see Ilno) is it really so hard to accept?

But if you seriously want to do this than explain to me: Why the hell Lenkija?!

KlaudijaK. in reply to ZemstaUFO

Actually Lithuanians do not care how Polish people say Wilno or Ilno. Our government does not prohibit us from seeing anything.
The only thing they do is that they try to make you, Poles, to respect Lithuania as a country and also respect Lithuanian language. If you live, stay or whatever You do in Lithuania, please, be so kind and intelligent - do not feel here as owners of Vilnius or people, who can make us to change our laws or our language.
Lithuania needs Poland. And Poland needs Lithuania.
It is just so stupid to see that Polish want to make something how they wish. You do not have government here.


It would interesting to know what signals led TE to a conclusion that PL-LT relations are "baffingly bad and getting dangerously worse". It is unless we interpret the situation of "no change" as "change to the worse" as the time is passing by.

Let us face the situation as it is. The things that Polish politicians want, can only be solved through the political voting in Seimas and no political party is prepared to do that, especially before the forthcoming elections in October. The Polish politicians' claims have no support whatsoever within the Lithuanian electorate at all (yet help get some extra votes for the more marginal groups). At the same time, there would not be a majority of opponents to the "second page" solution in the passports (i.e. getting the names in Polish or Russian characters on the second page). In my opinion, that's what we will get in the end out of all discussions when the political climate is more settled.

Ironically, on 2012.02.16. the PL president Komorowski was visiting Latvia and in his speech has praised its authorities for the "outstanding" Latvian approach to Polish minorities. http://www.prezydent.pl/aktualnosci/wydarzenia/art,2112,prezydenci-polsk...
Someone should repeat to Polish friends that Latvian approach to surnames is MORE RESTRICTIVE than Lithuanian (should Komorowski be Latvian citizen, he'd become Komorovskis, while remain Komorovski in Lithuania). So some consistency in claims would be appreciated.

As for the law on education, it will not be changed by any party that would come to power because having 2-3 subjects in Lithuanian (the rest - in Polish) at schools has nothing discriminatory or illogical in the context of the international practices of any democratic society. So the earlier the Polish politicians come to terms with that, the better it will be for their international image (unless they want the image of a "bully"). So in LT eyes, this case is closed and not to be reopened.

The restitution of property questions are more bureaucratic, and Lithuanians suffer from the same procedures. However, it is often forgotten that the local bureaucracies in Vilnius region depend on the same Polish politicians who shout aloud to collect the voices before October elections.

Just to recite TE, "none (of the disputed issues) amounts to discrimination, let alone persecution". What both parties (esp. Polish) need is some cold blood and maybe a psichologist in the form of OSCE (or other "neutral" body).

I think it would be intelligent of TE not to reopen the issue for a while so that to prevent the national pre-election media waters from boiling. I agree with Edward Lucas on his point that Lithuanian politicians should consider themselves lucky that the issue was not caught on a grand scale by the Polish media (with all the possible distortions and political side-effects).

gVic in reply to Piecemaker


It's not beaurocratic, it's basicly political. The institution that is responsible for restitution of property is controlled by government of Lithuania (so Lithuanian Poles from Vilnius region have little to say about that).

Local Polish population of Vilnius region is discriminated in terms of regaining propery rights in and around of Vilnius.
Central government introduced a law allowing ethnical Lithuanians from another parts of Lithuania to 'transfer their property rights' from their respective regions to get the rights for the land in Vilnius Region (as land around capital is the most profitable nowadays).

At the same time, Poles who lived there for generations, are still waiting for restitution of property (but there is less and less of land around Vilnius to be redistributed, as Lithuanian from other regions of Lithuania, who had nothing to common with Vilnius Region, got major part of it during recent two decades of Lithuanian independence).

zerwikaptur in reply to Piecemaker

Hello Piecemaker.
I will remind you that you did not answer my simple question from a different thread:
I will not let you off the hook concerning languages.
Earlier you stated:

"I support the idea of Vytautas V. Landsbergis junior who proposed in today's alfa.lt to have the street names if 4 different languages: Lithuanian, Polish, Ruthenian and Yiddish."

Now explain to me, why you support the 4 languages scenario in Vilnius region (including Yiddish, not really spoken there) and at at the same oppose it in Vilnius?

Piecemaker in reply to zerwikaptur

Dear zerwikaptur,

If you look closer at my post from a different thread, you will find the reply:

"As far as the multi-lingual street names in Vilnius are concerned, it can be a subject to consideration, but only after Poland re-introduces the German streetnames in Poznan, Wroclaw and Gdansk". Nothing more, nothing less and nothing personal.

I would not object to some history-related multilingualism (despite the practical difficulties it might cause in other areas outside Vilnius Old Town), but then Poland should approach it on the basis of RECIPROCITY (if it ever proceeds with claims like this).

It always keeps me amazed how some (not all, thanks God) Polish people / politicians keep throwing the stones around themselves while sitting in a palace made of glass.. (meaning its own historic sensitivities towards bigger Germany..)

zerwikaptur in reply to Piecemaker

You did not answer the question. The question was about differentiation based on geography: Vilnius are (region) vs. Vilnius city.

The existence of multilingual signs is a function of the existence of minorities and and to less extent tourism, not the past affiliation of a given territory to a different state. On basis on these two criteria Lithuania fails.

Germans in Poland, in places where they constitute a minority, have bilingual signs, so your comments about stones and glass are misdirected.

Piecemaker in reply to zerwikaptur

I think I did answer your question. If it makes you happy I am eager to make no differentiation between Vilnius city and Vilnius region (despite the practical difficulties it might sometimes cause).

The argument about having 4 historical languages on street names has nothing to do with the current presence or abscence of the minority. I say it is possible to have street-names in Yiddish in Vilnius Old Town (new districts too? :)) although there are only some elderly tourists who can speak this language on the streets today.

That's why your argument about Polish practices does not hold as long as there are no street-names in German in places like Gdansk, Szczecin, Wroclaw or Poznan. If I can remember well I did not see the German street names even in the smaller places like Opole. That's what I mean about the "stones" and "glass" - if you would like to bring credibility to such case, you should lead by the example (which Polish politicians would not proceed with because it would cause an anti-German hurricance in Polish society). Very simple - let us not set higher standards to others than we have towards ourselves.

zerwikaptur in reply to Piecemaker

You are deliberately trying to divert the issue from the rights of national minorities (as they are not respected now in Lithuania, including the bilingual names of places) to the issue of historical names in the places inhabited in the past by other nationalities.
They are two separate issues.
The first one is a matter of respect given to all citizens, irrespectively of their ethnic affiliation, the other is a nice tourist initiative.

Piecemaker in reply to zerwikaptur

I am not trying to divert the issue from national minorities towards tourism.

It is just because the Poles regard themselves as (one of, hopefully) historical minority of Vilnius city/region. That's why I do not suggest for now that one should proceed with the Chinese street-names any time soon. At the same time, I see no reason to disrespect other historical minorities who may claim a piece from the pie of Vilnius street-names (Jewish, Belorussian, etc.).

My further arguments are based on exactly the same historical logics that you resurrected from previous post: why disrespect a few percentage points of Szczecin German minority? You could at least emotionally compensate them for the expulsions of 95% Germans from their historic native lands by providing a few paultry German street-names... No big deal for loving Catholic Polish politicians, ain't it? :)

And you still did not comment why more discriminatory laws on Polish minority of Latvia are OK to Polish politics and the case of Lithuania - so complicated? Two different versions of "polskosc"? (citing Edward Lucas)

zerwikaptur in reply to Piecemaker

You are trying to divert, it has been said on this forum several times that if a minority in Poland has more than 20% of population in a given place then the bilingual naming can be introduced. If Germans in Szczecin achieve that threshold then they ask. I have no problem with that. I am happy you mentioned the population transfers after the war, the transfers being the direct result of the border changes. Border changes as result of which a Polish city of Wilno was given to a USSR and a German city of Stettin was given to a communist Poland. Poland did not decide about the border changes and lost territory as a result, unlike Lithuania in a legal form of LSRR that gained as a result.
If you want to emotionally compensate Germans, go ahead, you gained on the borders change. You can call rename Klaipeda back to Memel, for starters.
And if you refer to Catholicism I wonder why you do not apply the same to Lithuanian politics and their continuous discriminatory practices against Poles of Lithuania?
Concerning Poles in Latvia: if they are happy with what they have Poland should not intervene, respecting their will, unlike the Lithuanian government that follows the Soviet traits of knowing better what is good for a minority than the minority itself.




And then we entered into the stupid union with Poland....So dear neighbours-you kind of did occupy us and therefore don't be surprised that we "love" you so much. Unless, of course, you have some factual proof, that your ancestors lived around Vilnius pre 14th century? Then I would owe you an apology

Jay.Z in reply to Devile

First of all, you're contradicting yourself by saying 'union with Poland' and then 'occupy us'.

Secondly, had it not been for union with Poland, Baltic Lithuanian tribes would've ended up like Prussians and become extinct long time ago.

zerwikaptur in reply to Internautas

Assuming there is no union with Poland, what choices would the ruling classs of GDL had:
a) stick to paganism-> not very practical, both Teutonic Order and Poland could cooperate in eradication of the last outpost of paganism in Europe
b) accept Catholic Christianity: without a strong Catholic partner like Poland the competition against Orthodox Christianity would be difficult and probably lost, leading to assimilation with Ruthenians
c) accept Orthodox Christianity: direct assimilation into Ruthenians, faster than under b) option

ZemstaUFO in reply to Devile

U mad? You liked us, wanted to have peace with teutonic order. We asked you for a dinner, you agreed, we got married. Then war separated us. Now you complain about having gotten into the whole matter in the first place. About who screwed who and who gets the kids and house now. You act like a bitchy ex wife.


The Lithuanians should relax regarding the spelling. Restricting the “w” to “v” is not going to make the poles more integrated.
Hungarians in Romania are allowed to use letters that are not in the Romanian alphabet and they make only 6,6% of the general population.
The official site of the Romanian government (www.gov.ro) is spelling the name of “László Borbély”, the minister of environment with hungarian letters like “á, ó, é” which are not mentioned in the Romanian alphabet. Yet, no one ever complained about his spelling.


"In a coded reference to the Balkan wars in the 1990s, the OSCE’s commissioner for national minorities, Knut Vollebaek, says, “history in Europe shows that inter-ethnic tensions can spill over into problems between countries and even regions”. But he has got nowhere. Lithuanians tell him not to demand changes that the parliament won’t vote for."
Not to worry, Mr Vollebaek. Due to their legendary stubbornness and backward mentality, Lithuania will get nowhere themselves. And young generation of Lithuanians have shown middle finger to their homeland and run away for the West in large volumes. Not to say that all young LT generation is open minded, as I suppose, they can get away from Lithuania, but Lithuania won't get away from their minds... ;-)
Besides, the most funny thing to me is Lithuanians saying that Vilnius/Wilno was Polish just in the interwar period, as a result of Polish "occupation", and that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania had never been part of Poland.
So how it was possible that yet in 1916 50.2% of the city residents were Polish and just 2.6% were Lithuanian?
(link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_history_of_the_Vilnius_region)
Also, how it was possible for Poland to get quite large groups of GDL society polonised in earlier centuries? Polonisation in a separate country (despite the union, GDL was a separate state from Kingdom of Poland)? Then, the Poles must've invented the most successful and effective way of attracting foreigners to join the Polish family... :-)

Nimrod337 in reply to Jay.Z

Hey, thanks for all the names you called us, Mr. Forward. You forgot to mention that your own people are abandoning Poland.... or was it very, very old generation of Poles in Ireland that wanted Ireland to adopt POLISH as a national language? Lithuanians might be stubborn, but you people are the laughing stock of Europe. And give Stettin, Breslau and Danzig back to Germany. They were always German towns.

Jay.Z in reply to Paulius Kulikauskas

The info, which you provided has actually nothing to do with backward or forward mentality...

Anyway, tell me, did Poland decide on the shape of our borders delimited in 1945?

Besides, Poles don't deny the fact of German legacy on the lands, which had been part of Germany before WW2. Lithuania undertake best efforts to prove that the areas with strong Polish heritage and dominant Polish population before 1939 are nothing but "pure" Lithuanian. :-))

Is your above reply in the style of "And you are lynching Negroes" everything how you're able to respond to my comment?

DraggerPL in reply to Nimrod337

They were but were given to Poland after the war German started, in which it killed millions of our citizens. It was still not a high price to pay for starting the biggest massacre in the human history, so I DON'T think the comparison is justified...

Asnyk in reply to Nimrod337

Stettin, Breaslau, Danzig.
Were they always German?
In case if by being German you mean a part of Germany:
Germany as a state was created in 1871.
Stettin was a capital of Pomerania - a slavic state.
Breslau first was in Poland, next in Czech Kingdom.
Now Danzig:
997–1308: part of the Kingdom of Poland
1308–1454: part of the territory of the Teutonic Order
1454–1466: Thirteen Years' War
1466–1569: part of the Kingdom of Poland
1569–1793: part of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth
1793–1805: part of Prussia
1807–1814: a free city
1815–1871: part of Prussia
1871–1920: part of Imperial Germany
1920–1939: a free city
1939–1945: part of Nazi Germany
1945–1989: part of Polish People's Republic
1989–present: part of Republic of Poland

You seem to follow the logic - in the Eastern Europe the German soils is where a single German speaking person lives.


All around USSR, minorities only spoke Russian as lingua franca. Now that the landlords have changed, they have a hard time learning the language of new masters.
In fact, they are so reluctant to switch to the new language that they allied themselves with the Russians in trying to preserve the old status of Russian language and the old political status quo in some cases.
I see Poles in Lithuania are no exception to the rule.
Though I believe they should be allowed to spell their names the way they want to.


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