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High fevers and tylenol....??

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
So this afternoon, my youngest who's 2 1/2, started to get quiet, and whinny. DH and I knew he wasn't feeling good, and spent a lot of the rest of the day cuddling with him. He started to feel warm around 3pm or so, but I just kept pushing the water, and Emer'genC, I wanted his body to do what it needed to do(Ialso gave him 2 vit C chewables). But by this evening, he started to feel pretty hot, and a bit lethargic, so I decided to take his temp. It was 103, but very close to 104, so I would call it 103.7 or 8. This is from an old fashioned rectal thermometer, so very accurate. My DH was right there to help distract him, and when I said what it was, he almost fell off his chair. He freaked out, and said "we got to give him something, that is way to high!!" I was very calm, and said nothing at first, trying to remember if I had read anything about high fevers, and when are they too high. I conceded, and gave him a half dose of Tylenol, feeling that at that temp, it could be dangerous to let his body get out of control (if that can even happen).

What should I have done? Was he still OK at that temp? Did I do the right thing to give him the Tylenol (God, I hate that I had to give it to him, it just felt like it was OK), which BTW he was up and talking after about 25 minutes or so. I need to know what the perimeters are for Tylenol.
post #2 of 23
I definately would have given it to him for that high of a temp. IMO, I wouldn't want to risk a febrile seizure. Which they say do no lasting harm, but hmmm...
post #3 of 23
That is NOT a high fever. I wouldn't worry in a baby/toddler/young child until 105. Definitely not under 104. No worries at all. Over 104 I would do other things to lower fever- warm baths etc.

The danger for seizures is a rapid rise (OR FALL) in temp. Not simply a high temp.

hope he feels better soon!

post #4 of 23
I know rectal is always higher than in the mouth. I remember when my daughter was sick freeking out but finding out latter that is is one to two degrees higher than under the arm. I personally think erring on the safe side with a bit of tylenol in a low dose was just fine.
Do a search on temperature comparisions. I am sorry I can't remember the details.
post #5 of 23
If the child is uncomfortable and miserable then I will give tylenol. But I have a real fear of high temps considering that my oldest brother suffed brain damage because of a 105-106 and rising temp. Personally with my kids if the fever is over 101 and rising I give meds so that they can sleep and heal.
post #6 of 23
A 103.8 rectal temp in a 2 and a half year old isnt very high. (ETA, rectal is usually one degree higher than oral or 2 degrees higher than axillary/armpit. this is an average)

I personally wouldn't have given Tylenol.

A damp, cool cloth on the head, liquids and anything else he wanted (ice pops, ice cream, soups, cookies, lol, whatever).

A fever happens for a reason--it is trying to kill whatever is invading the body. Giving tylenol stops the body from protecting itself.

Lethargy is another response to illness, created by nature to kind of force the body to relax, concentrate the energy on fighting the bacteria or virus and building up antibodies.

And a febrile seizure--while scary for mom and dad, is usually not harmful to the child. At 2 and a half, unless he has an ongoing history of febrile seizures, it's really not even an issue--very likely that he'd experience one.

if you felt the need to break the seizure, there are more natural (safe) ways to do so. Homeopathy, cool soaks, herbs, etc.

it's not up to me or anyone else here to say if what you did was "right" or not.

Best Wishes,
post #7 of 23
Originally Posted by MCatLvrMoMof2
I would consider medicating IF the child was very uncomfortable and unable to rest. Otherwise, there is no evidence that fever reducers help the body heal in any way and plenty of evidence to the contrary.

post #8 of 23
I know the fever reducer wouldnt help the healing but rest and sleep definatly do
post #9 of 23
I figured Just wanted to make sure it was clear to anyone reading.

post #10 of 23
i only give our 11mth old ds tylenol is he is tottaly inconsolable...he wont rest, eat and nothing else is helping. I never care about the # on the thermometor unless its 104/105. But as he gets older its becoming less of an issue. unfortunatly, the last time he was sick, he had a low tollerance and around 101 he got inconsolable and some tylenol helped him rest and eat.
post #11 of 23
Temps can only cause brain damage over 106. Anything under that is not, in itself, harmful. If a child is sick, he needs to rest. It's not pleasant for us as parents to see our children acting listless, but it serves the purpose already mentioned - it gets them to rest so their bodies can heal. Getting a child who is sick "up and talking" by giving antipyretics can prevent them from getting the rest they actually need to heal, extend the length of the illness and result in more medication being given for more days, since the child is sick longer. The WHO actually has something on its website about the benefits of fevers. I would save tylenol for the times when the illness is preventing my DD from resting, not the times it is causing her to rest.

I hope your DS is well soon.
post #12 of 23
Dr. Mendelsohn's chapter on fever in his 'How to raise a healthy child...' book is awesome. He lists 12 facts about high fevers that pretty much cover all the parent's fears on the subject.
In particular,
Fact No. 11: 'Fevers poduced by viral or bacterial infections will not cause brain damage or permanent physical harm'
Fact No. 12: 'High fevers do not cause convulsions. They result when the temperature rises at an extremely rapid rate'.
Fact No. 10: 'Measures to reduce temperature, such as drugs or sponging, are worse than unnecessary; they are actually counterproductive'.
Fact No. 9: 'Untreated fevers caused by viral and bacterial infections do not rise inexorably and will not exceed 105 degrees'.

The only cases when fevers can be dangerous, are when fevers are caused by overheating and chemical poisoning. Otherwise, fever is a good thing that makes it possible to overcome the infection in the best possible way and create a good lasting immunity.
post #13 of 23
i don't medicate for fevers. i usually don't even take temperatures. i let the fever do what it needs to do, and let the child tell me what they need. the last fever my daughter got was quite high (high enough that i actually took it, it was around 103.) it lasted the whole day. she wouldn't drink much, but i got into her as much fluid as i could. she didn't want to eat--i didn't make her. she wanted to lie on the couch, i let her rest so she could heal. i gave her lots of vitamin c, homeopathic aconite for the sudden onset of fever, and probiotics. I wrapped her feet in warm lemon wraps with wool socks over top (this is supposed to draw some heat from the head out through the feet. I don't know if it worked, but she liked it.) i gave her one dose of homeopathic gelsemium (the closest match to her symptoms that i could find,) and by morning her fever was gone. she wasn't sick either, the fever took care of it.

i try not to let fevers scare me. i know they can be scary--i was starting to get a bit worried about her, and the what-if thoughts started to enter my mind but i decided to just let it go a bit longer and see what happened. Even the nurses hotline says that you should only bring a feverish child in to the doc if the high fever doesn't go away after several DAYS...so if you wait long enough, most fevers will go away on their own. and if you give tylenol, you just keep the fever from doing its job, and you can prolong the illness. it's hard to watch your child be uncomfortable, but that discomfort is how the body fights off the offender.
post #14 of 23
I hope this helps you. It will take a couple of posts to get it all in. I hope I'm not violating any sort of copyright. I'm just pasting an email I received and was asked to pass on.

Fever in Children - A Blessing in Disguise

By Linda B. White and Sunny Mavor
Originally printed in Mothering Magazine Excerpted from Kids, Herbs, and Health: A Parents' Guide to Natural Remedies by Linda B. White, MD, and Sunny Mavor, AHG, $21.95, with permission from Interweave Press, 1999.

Fever is not a disease but rather a symptom of an illness.
Childhood fevers frighten grownups.
Fever is maligned and misunderstood.
Controversy surrounding the management of fever causes anxiety for parents, because they are not completely sure what to do when their child has one. It may help parents to remember that fever is only one part of the picture of an illness. In fact, for children under eight years of age, and especially for infants, the severity of a fever is an unreliable indicator of the severity of the child's illness. For example, infants and toddlers can be very sick with a low or even subnormal temperature. Conversely, children three to eight years old can be running about quite cheerfully with a fairly impressive fever. The important thing is how your child is acting, not the thermometer reading. Defining Fever First, let's define normal body temperature. Most people say 98.6ºF (37ºC) is normal, but this doesn't account for individual variations or the fact that kids tend to run slightly hotter than adults. You can think of anything between 97º and 99.4ºF (36º and 37.4ºC) as normal. Consumption of hot food, recent exercise, overbundling, hot weather, or an overheated room can drive body temperature up a degree or two. Body temperature also varies during the course of the day, and, with teenaged girls, the menstrual cycle. Fevers usually hit their highest point in the late afternoon. Conversely, kids often have their lowest temperature of the day early in the morning. So don't panic at 4 p.m. when your child's fever rises slightly; this does not necessarily forebode a raging fever. On the other hand, if your child has a low-grade fever upon awakening, you may want to keep him home. How Fever Happens Infections most commonly launch fever, especially in children. Other triggers include transfusion reactions, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, tumors, inflammatory reactions caused by trauma, medications (including some antihistamines, antibiotics, or an overdose of aspirin), immunizations, and dehydration. Most physicians do not believe that teething directly causes significant fever, but we have seen it happen. When infectious "bugs" stimulate white blood cells in a specific way, they release a substance called endogenous pyrogen, which signals the brain's hypothalamus to raise the body's thermostat setting. In turn, the body heats up by increasing its metabolic rate, shivering, or seeking warm environments. It also minimizes heat loss by restricting blood flow to the skin, giving it a pale appearance. Once body temperature rises, the skin flushes and sweats. A fever sufferer may lose appetite and feel lethargic, achy, and sleepy. When these phenomena happen to our children, we just tuck them into bed and let them sleep. A basic fever, one due to minor bacterial or viral illness, can be an expression of the immune system working at its best. Given that most animals (vertebrates anyway) mount a fever in response to illness, it's likely that humans have preserved this evolutionary response because it improves survival. Some research supports this theory; animal studies show when fever is blocked, survival rates from infection decline. Fever increases the amount of interferon (a natural antiviral and anticancer substance) in the blood. A mild fever also increases the white blood cells that kill cells infected with viruses, fungi, and cancer, and improves the ability of certain white blood cells to destroy bacteria and infected cells. Fever also impairs the replication of many bacteria and viruses. Bottom line: A moderate fever is a friend, but not one you want to spend a lot of time with. So it makes sense to avoid suppressing moderate fevers with drugs, while continuing to monitor your child for dramatic increases in temperature and worsening of any other of his symptoms. Can Fever Do Harm? Any time body temperature increases, salt and water are lost via sweating, and stores of energy and vitamins, especially the water-soluble ones, are burned up. During moderate fevers, we can compensate for these losses by drinking appropriate fluids, ingesting nutritious foods, or taking vitamin supplements.
Replacing water-soluble vitamins (chiefly C and Bs) makes sense. However, during fevers, the body makes some minerals unavailable for a good reason - bacteria need them to thrive. In terms of energy stores, our bodies switch from burning glucose (the favorite meal of bacteria) to burning protein and fat.
This means a few days of poor appetite is probably adaptive. In other words, don't cajole or coerce your children into eating during fevers if they don't feel hungry; they will likely regain any lost weight quickly after the illness ends. You do, however, need to encourage fluids, because dehydration alone can drive up fever.
Very high fevers - those above 106°F (41°C) - can harm the heart and brain. Some authorities, however, say that fever is unlikely to cause brain damage in a previously healthy child. During most infections, the brain keeps body temperature at or below 104°F (40°C). So in most - not all - cases, you don't need to be afraid that your child's temperature is going to continue to rise above that point.
What About Febrile Seizures?
First, let's define them. These abnormal jerking movements occur in children between the ages of three months and five years in association with a fever, but without evidence of infection of the nervous system. The seizure lasts no longer than 15 minutes (usually five minutes or less) and causes twitching all over. About 3 percent of kids get febrile seizures.
The reason some children have this susceptibility isn't well understood. Of those kids who have a first-time febrile seizure, about one-third have a recurrence. Risks for recurrence go up with younger age at the first seizure (16 months old or less) and a family history of febrile seizures.
Frightening as these seizures are for parents, they're benign; once they pass, the child continues to develop normally. Often pediatricians can help parents learn to block high temperatures by giving ibuprofen or acetaminophen when fevers start. For the few children who have recurrent febrile seizures, anticonvulsants or sedatives may be used.
What to Do If Your Child Has a Febrile Seizure
Try to stay calm. That's a tall order, but your child needs you to be collected. Take a deep breath. Let it out. Tell yourself that the seizure will not last long (although it may seem like forever) and that your child will likely be fine afterward.

Look at your watch to time the length of the seizure. This sounds like a big demand, given the anxiety a parent naturally feels. However, you will otherwise overestimate the time, and the duration of the seizure is important information for the doctor. If it exceeds five minutes, call 911.

Turn your child on his side. This reduces his risk of gagging on or inhaling secretions.
Make sure the immediate environment is safe. Remove objects your child might hit.
Do not restrain your child. After the seizure is over, comfort and reassure your child, then call your doctor for an immediate appointment. He or she will want to evaluate your child for any abnormalities (other than fever) that may have triggered the seizure. If the seizure lasted longer than five minutes and/or your child seems to be very sick, your physician may tell you to go to the emergency room right away.
post #15 of 23
Over-the-Counter Medications for Fevers
It makes sense to us that if fever helps defend against infection, giving fever-reducing medications may make things worse. In addition, some fever medications can have undesirable side effects. On the other hand, no one likes to watch a child suffer. And fever can deplete a child's energy. Here's a profile of over-the-counter medicines for reducing fever and discomfort.
Acetaminophen reduces fever and pain but not inflammation. Follow the package instructions. Because of the risk of liver damage, do not dose more frequently than every four to six hours or for more than five consecutive days. There is no need to awaken your child to give her a dose; sleep will do far more good.
Ibuprofen (Children's Motrin, Pediaprofen, Advil) reduces fever, pain, and inflammation. Follow the package instructions. Do not give more often than every six hours unless your physician advises otherwise. This medicine can cause stomach upset.
Aspirin reduces fever, pain, and inflammation, but pediatricians rarely recommend it.
Use of aspirin in children during viral illness has been linked to Reye's syndrome, a disease characterized by severe liver dysfunction and brain swelling. Symptoms include effortless and repeated vomiting, then a change in the level of consciousness (lethargy, stupor, combative behavior, delirium, seizures, coma).
No one knows what the cause of Reye's is, but it seems to be linked with aspirin use during viral illnesses. For this reason, authorities have recommended that children under 21 years with symptoms of viral respiratory illness or chickenpox do not take aspirin. Sometimes herpes outbreaks and viral gastroenteritis (marked by vomiting and/or diarrhea) are included in the list of illnesses during which aspirin must be avoided.
Unfortunately, it is often difficult to be certain of the cause of an illness when it starts. Aspirin is a component of many cold and flu over-the-counter medications, so avoiding it requires careful label reading on your part.
Medications for fever can act as a screen. Here are some pros and cons to giving your child over-the-counter medication to ease a fever.
Medication such as acetaminophen can help sort out whether your child feels miserable because of a fever or because of an infection. Some physicians use a trial of acetaminophen as a screen. If, after the drug kicks in, the child looks and acts better, it is less likely that he has a fever or that his infection is a serious one.
Fever medications can make your child feel better. He may be more likely to drink fluids, nibble food, and sleep. All can help him recover.
Fever medications can mask symptoms. In other words, your child acts as though his health has improved, but it really hasn't.
Fever medications may actually prolong the illness. This opinion of some practitioners is backed by a few studies. Assuming the response of the body to illness (fever, inflammation, sleepiness) is adaptive, it seems reasonable to assume that interfering with the process may do more harm than good. The following are some examples that support this theory.

In test-tube studies, therapeutic levels of aspirin suppressed the ability of human white blood cells to destroy bacteria. Acetaminophen did not have this effect. Another study found that a host of pain relievers, including aspirin and ibuprofen, inhibited white-cell production of antibodies by up to 50 percent. The bottom line. Use these medicines sparingly when your child is in pain or suffers discomfort from a fever over 102°F (38.8°C). Ask yourself whether you are administering the fever-reducing medicine to make your child more comfortable or to decrease your own anxiety.
Nondrug approaches can go a long way toward helping your child feel better. If the situation does not seem urgent, you might want to consider a trial of herbal treatment before you pull out the acetaminophen.
Home Management of Fevers
Do give your child lots to drink. Fever increases fluid loss, and dehydration can drive up your child's temperature. Kids with fever often do not feel thirsty, or by the time they do, they're already dehydrated. So keep offering fluids.
Small, frequent sips are often best, especially if the child feels nauseated. If necessary, use a plastic medicine dropper to gently insert water into your child's mouth. The type that holds several ounces is best to use.
Dress lightly or bundle? The answer depends on your children's perception of temperature - follow her cues. If your child looks pale, shivers, or complains of feeling chilled (things that tend to happen in the early stages of fever), bundle her in breathable fabrics so that sweat will evaporate, but make sure she can easily remove the layers. If she is comfortable and her fever is low, dress her snuggly and give warm liquids to assist the body's fever production. If she sweats and complains of heat, dress her lightly and let her throw off the covers. Older kids will take care of these needs themselves.
Don't push food. People with fevers generally don't have much appetite. Let your child determine when and what she eats. Just bear in mind that consumption of sugary foods could delay the natural immune response.
Herbal Remedies for Fevers
A rule of thumb that herbalists like to use during minor illness with fever is: "First, do nothing," meaning that a short period of observation ought to precede any action against the illness. Follow our guidelines above for seeking medical assistance for feverish children under the age of two, and encourage fluids. For older children, give liquids, make them comfortable, and observe closely.
Is your child drinking fluids well? Urinating at least once every eight hours (ideally, every three to four hours, or wetting eight to ten diapers per day)? Does your touch console her? Is she playing normally? If the answer to these questions is yes, she is probably not seriously ill.
This observation time can also help you figure out which of the following herbs are most indicated and effective.
Boneset. We cannot find much current research on this herb, but folklore, historical medical texts, and personal experience tell us it works. Consider the opinion of Drs. John Uri Lloyd and Harvey Felter from 1898, two of the most respected herb doctors in American history: "In influenza, it relieves the pain in the limbs and back. Its popular name, 'boneset,' is derived from its well-known property of relieving the deep-seated pains in the limbs which accompany this disorder."
For more information about herbal remedies for children, see the following articles in past issues of Mothering: "The Scent That Soothes," no. 80; "Natural Remedies for Childhood Diseases," no. 77; "Natural Immune Boosters," no. 73; "Natural Remedies for Winter Illnesses," no. 69, and "Childhood Fevers," no. 51.
Linda B. White, MD, is the mother of two and the author of The Grandparent Book. She is a national natural health writer.
Sunny Mavor, AHG, is a professional member of the American Herbalists Guild and lectures nationally on botanical medicine. She is the mother of two and the founder of Herbs for Kids.
post #16 of 23
Most Parents Clueless on How to Treat Fevers in Kids

A survey comparing attitudes of doctors, nurses and parents towards treating fevers in children reveals that parents tend to treat high temperatures much more aggressively than health professionals do.
A low fever can actually benefit a sick child, and the researchers attributed parental tendencies to "fever phobia" -- a fear that fever is harmful -- which they say originated after the introduction of anti-fever drugs like Tylenol.
A group of Israeli researchers obtained their results from a questionnaire sent to more than 2,000 parents, doctors and nurses regarding fevers in children older than 3 months. The researchers defined fever as 1.8 degrees Fahrenheit above normal body temperature, which is around 98.6 degrees. The survey included questions on risks of fever, dosages of anti-fever drugs and when children should be treated.
The investigators found that only 43% of parents knew that a fever below 100.4 degrees can be beneficial to a child, in contrast to 86% of the doctors and 64% of the nurses who responded to the survey.
The majority of parents also said they would treat a fever below 100.4 even if the child has no other symptoms, something with which only 11% of doctors agreed.
A fever can actually help sick children. The body basically, is trying to do the right thing. Bugs like to live at body temperature. So if you raise the temperature, you kill them off. And contrary to what parents may believe the body can function very efficiently at temperatures as high as 100.5 degrees.
While seizures from fevers are scary for parents, a previous study showed febrile seizures caused no long-term neurological damage. In contrast, fever-related seizures only occur at very high temperatures -- around 108 degrees.
In the case of fever-related seizures, parents should be more concerned that meningitis or bacteria in the blood may be causing the seizure than the child's fever.
Patient Education and Counseling January 2002;46:61-65
post #17 of 23
Thread Starter 
Thanks so much for all the info!! I have to make DH read this, than maybe next time he will take my word for it.

The baby is doing much better today, he woke a few times during the night but did fine once DH slept with him for the rest of the night. But today, he was ready to go. I am so glad I only gave him a half dose. I really wish I had only put him to bed, and skipped the Tylenol, but that embedded fear, and I really didn't know what was high, and what wasn't. Now I know.

Plummeting, I never thought of it like that, but it makes total sense, and I agree with you.

I think that now that I know what a "high" temp is, I will be better informed to tackle this next time, Thanks so much, I treasure this board for all I have learned from all of you, and thats what its all about, right, knowing the info and using it.
post #18 of 23
I just went through the same thing last week with ds and dh. Dh is much more mainstream than I am, and generally worries about this kind of thing more than I do. I dont usually even feel the need to take a temp unless he just feels REALLY hot. Under 104 I also wouldnt worry, 105 and up freaks me out a bit, but I generally try to be situational about tylenol. If the fever wasnt keeping him from sleeping, then I wouldnt bother. However, as others have stated, if dc cant sleep, or is inconsolable, I would definatly attempt some kind of fever reduction/stress reliever. I'm planning to use bella donna in the future, (newly purchased since this last round of illness, it killed me to give him tylenol when I dont believe its good for you! I also only gave a half dose, mostly to appease my dh...: ) and other homeopathics when the circumstances arise.

hope your ds is feeling better!
post #19 of 23
Just remembering...

My mother raised 5 kids without a thermometer. Following in her tradition, I raised my daughter without one, too. I was terrified the first time my baby had a fever, but I don't recall ever worrying about it again.

I think my daughter may own a thermometer...but she doesn't use fever reducers...and her children are not only alive, but fairly healthy.

So, I'm just wondering if a thermometer is actually a useful tool for childraising or something that helps scare parents into interfering unnecessarily with the normal process of illness.

post #20 of 23
Originally Posted by LandonsMom View Post
Just a note - belladonna, as well as other homeopathic remedies do not reduce the fever in the same sense that paracetamol does. If the remedy is similar (i.e. chosen correctly for the case), then it treats the sick person as a whole, NOT single and isolate symptoms, like fever, pain, etc. That means that fever can actually go up and not down - if this is what has to happen to deal with the disease in the best possible way.
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