Chinese nationalism

Flame on

Rather than shout themselves hoarse, maybe foreign and Chinese protesters could try talking

See article

Readers' comments


the Prince

What is the main body of media?
News, isn't? The media tell people what's going on.

However the reality is seen through human's eyes.
If the reality is distorted in the reporter's eyes or the reporter deliberately distorts the reality the media spread inaccurate

information and sometimes mislead readers.

Use a photo taken in Nepal and say it happened in Tibet
is a typical distortation.

Another example of media distortation is only focusing on the tail of the elephant rather than the whole elephant in order to realize

some people's aim.

Indeed there were some protestors but more supporters.
Some media just report protestors no supporters at all. Yes, this is just what they want people to see and feel.

one more hiden trick of media distortation:

They report:
The armed police are crack downing the "peaceful" protest in Tibet and x people have been killed.

The reality is in fact the protest was not peaceful but violent. It was not crack down but supress since the armed police were protecting

inncent people and victims.
Indeed, x people died in the riot. But they were killed by thugs， not by the police.

It is tragic to see some people's ugly human nature.
But it is reality.

Make the earth a better place
sometimes is only a slogan.

Actually they are utilizing all dirty means to make themselves live better than others and trying very measure to keep their dominance on this planet.


Many chinese's repetitive comments ask if we (westerners) do know the history of China/Tibet.
"Why do you need to "know" WHY or HOW Tibet is/NOT part of China?"
Tibetans deserve selfdetermination, but of course the majority of chinese commenters here does even not know what it is.

Philip Francis Sy

For some reason, your magazine and some originating from the west still do not get it. The Tibet incident did not just coincide with China's preparations for the Olympics. Tibet has always been a part of China if you care to study Asia's history. Most Chinese, overseas or native, still remember the bullying and brutual colonisation of Asia by the west. These are lessons of history handed down from our parents and grandparents and not through government indoctrination. In the same way that the West mistook Vietnam's struggle for independence as a Communist-vs-Democracy struggle. For as long as the flawed notion of the West persists, i.e. that all its ideas are superior to other civilizations, you and your media will always create more distortions and troubles, regardless of your intentions. Maybe it's about time to do some reflection and introspection. Oriental meditation we call it sometimes.


Honestly, I am not sure. The thing about the media is that it can be used to inform or indoctrinate, but either way it creates ideas of the truth. Even if the Chinese were to refuse to believe what its media tells them, they are bombarded by ideas that are controlled by the central state in daily life and which are communicated to create imagined ideas and an imagined reality. For example, this notion of "victimization" is a lot like constructed notions of nationalism, an idea of collective identity that has no tangible basis but which individuals cling to in order to create their sense of identity. A person who may disbelieve what they hear in the news must still interact in a society made of collected individuals who share ideas and concepts. That interaction shapes the context in which they live their lives.Controlling the mechanisms in which ideas are creates is a remarkable source of power for the state, but one that is frequently underestimated- economic, political, military power are much easier to understand. But the power of ideas is inherently difficult to quantify or measure, but no less pervasive and powerful. Think of the importance of ideology to motivate religious movements from the Crusades to civil rights movements in the US or in India, or the power of ideas in framing the Communist Revolutions in China or Russia. Otherwise, re-education camps would not exist or dissidents would not be placed in prisons. The Cultural Revolution, the Taiping Rebellion- were caused by the power of ideas.


This is a very well balanced article until the last paragraph.

I really don't know where the author has gotten his facts from. I certainly agree that the Chinese government lies a lot, that is why the average Chinese does not trust their government, but what about Tibet? Don't be so sure about yourself with your knowledge of Tibet, please list your sources.

If you really know the Chinese since the 80s, NOBODY BELIEVES THE GOVERNMENT OR THE MEDIA.


Some media in China reports that all Carrefour-related information is now blocked online there. The reporter entered "Carrefour" in Chinese on all the main search engines and drew a blank. The internet police said that Carrefour-related information often mentioned China-France relations and Tibet independence, so "some content probably is against the law".

If Chinese nationalists protested against the censorship in China with the same passion as they protest against the Western media, I would support them.

There is a lot criticism against the government on Chinese message boards and blogs. But as far as I can remember, I haven't seen any suggestion that the CCP should step down, or the official verdicts on Tiananmen Square protest or Falungong should be overturned, or Tibetans should have the right for self-determination or independence etc. So there is a clear limit on free speech in China.


Bambu,Why do you need to "explain" why or how Tibet is part of China? It is what it is. Just because some actor clown has easy access to US media to sell the DL does not mean Chinese need defend against his words. Never forget, he is in the media because he is a famous actor and has a controversial topic, not because he is right or even that he makes sense.When Chinese anger and rise to defend China, they give weight to actors and other personalities speaking against China. If you ignore them, the media will soon follow your lead. No controversy, no air time.



Regarding the limit of free speech in China. The truth is that I don't know, and I bet no one in China actually knows that, perhaps even the minister in charge of propaganda (Minister of ZhongXuanBu).

The problem in China, (and eventually I believe is the hope), is that the society had been such a chaotic mixture now, so much so that no one really knows what is allowed and what is not, not only on free speech.

For example, one of my friend is an editor for a campus newspaper. One of the article in a recent issue described a girl who 'hates Lu Xun'. (Lu Xun is Mao's favorite revolutionary writer with an outsized representation in Chinese text books.) The printing agency, curiously, pointed that out to him saying that the article was 'reactionary and should not be allowed into the paper'. Of course, my friend did not care what he said and it went to press as-is. The printing agent later rejected further printing contract, but up to now, nothing happened.

Yet on the other hand, on major portals, such as sina, you would see well known bloggers, chief among them Xiao Han, my favorite author and a legal expert, and Han Han (who had achieved an eye popping 132.45 million page views, making him the blogger with second largest viewership in China), who had been sternly critical to the nationalist youth, and whose words were sometimes even harsher than what Weiminfuwu and Sampaguita had used. Those blogs were still there and had attracted an surprisingly large approving audience.

So here is the bottom line: is there freedom of speech in China? Certainly yes. But is there full freedom of speech in China? Certainly not. So what is the boundary on what can and cannot be said and published? - Not even the God knows.



I am not that optimistic on lifting censorship. In my view the propaganda department (Zhong Xuan Bu) and education department may be the most conservative and damaging factors in this country (probably except these old cadres? who knows). Current fiasco is going to play up their argument in asserting more control, rather less, both in free speech and open society.

Can't help but remember that after 1986/1989 Lhasa riots, the once open and progressive Hu Yaobang Tibet policy had been replaced with a more repressive and close Tibet policy. We can blaim CCP. But sometimes I just cannot help but imagine, what if there was no riots in 1986/1989 in Tibet ... And what if the student leaders in 1989 in Beijing had been more like real statesman, rather than being subject to the same human errants as those officials they were against, as they had later revealed themselves.


jakeinbj,I agree with you fully that resorting to violence from any party will only damage their cause and tarnish their image. "We have kooks and weird antics in the West which the media plays up but is not representative or bears much significance." You know because of these "kooks" and "antics", it leaves us (meaning me and my Chinese friends) a lot of work to do on explaining to our American friends and co-workers why Tibet is part of China. :)


westeners are almost not know china's current state. l am sorry to see that french man rudely destory the delivery of


torch in Europe,even strike a chinese olymic crippled champion ,which spoiled the relationship and friendship between china and the west .



Thanks for the kind words.

I am interested on your post to UNCPanda regarding pushing the envelope on censorship. I have read the message boards on 163 and sina and see many messages critical of the government. For the benefit of our western friends, I suppose that anything short of treason/inciting social unrest and leaking of state secrets would be acceptable?

Going forward, I do hope that the censorship will be eliminated over the next few years. Currently only a small portion of the population have access to the internet and overseas news. Within the next few years, that portion will increase significantly and the PSB will definitely not have the resources to keep watch.

Have a happy holiday.

Riverson Justice

Where there is a outcome, there is a cause;
Where there is a campaign, there is a drive;
and so does nationalism.

Why the "once silent" Chinese people burst out so fiercely this time and go beyond the imagination of the rest of the world?
One simple answer: Enough is enough!



'Well I still read back and forth comments about how Tibet is an absolute... Nothing new the same arguments ...a new batch of posters repeating the same propaganda ... a few veterans at bat having to refute for the 100th time, with occasional dialogue as we get to know each other and can move to more serious debate over differing points of view. '

Hey, while refuting for the 100th time, is it not also a propaganda as well - through your definition? :)

Just let them speak. If the veterans could take the lead to start debating some more serious issues, rather than being angered to fight back again and again on the same topic by simply different fresh men, maybe this forum would start to function much smoother.

And by the way, some veteran debater should also learn to respect a different view - simply calling any opponents being brainwashed certainly does not help serious debate.

'... an alarming trend from younger Chinese contributors, ... the post Tianamen square generation, to be super sensitive to any form of criticism and lashing out ... rising nationalism trend, not in a unifying way - ... out of control it can lead to ugly things as we have all learned to our sorrow in this world. '

Yeah now you also feel some heat of Chinese Feng Qing (Angry Youth)? Hehe. Just imaging you are in China and debate with them on what is the best way to protect low skill labor and provide affordable housing - you may find it desperately difficult. But please do not complain so hard, anyway this is the first wave of free speech by many Chinese people. As you know, the first time a supressed spring is let loose, the altitude of oscillation would be the largest. People will grow and mature, their world view would become more sophisticated and more tolerant.

'It's almost an "us against them" mentality and to Hell with you westerners. '

Well, similar feeling arouse while a Chinese reading through all the reports (recent reports are much more balanced) and the comments here.

'Tonights news is that CCP agrees to meet with representatives of Dalai Lama again. Serious talks or only a PR exercise to chill out western media? What do our regular Chinese contributors have to say about this?'

I, for one, would not support to start the talk based on HHDL's Middle Way. Not on Greater Tibet, nor on the demand that Tibet having its own diplomacy and army. Of course, this could be a good start of a fresher debate.



'Normally, a typical western newspaper would have articles of protectionism, incest, labour strikes, gay priests, failings of politicians/businessmen etc, but do these articles paint an accurate picture of the west? Of course not. So when you read bad news about China, do not take it for granted that China is all bad.'

Great comments and nicely summarized the key points.



'I do not dare to express so explicitly how I dissatisfy the CPC (chinese communist party) is fooling its people and how i dissatisfy the CPC is manipulating its people's nationalism. CPC is a ruling body which has an advanced monitor system spotting anybody opposing or disclosing it. '

Oh please do not be too sensitive and speak up. Like you (probably, who knows?) I am a Chinese and is currently residing in China. Check up what I have said. Sometimes the true scope of freedom can be recognized only through exploring the boundary. And if posting on web sites, especially on sites such as Economist, those 'reactionary' words would lead you into prison, I believe Chinese prison would be soon overflown.　Afterall even China would need money, tax payer's money, to run their prison.


"I can still and freely say that every day goes by my dislike for China is increasing and not the contrary"

"Is there a coalition of western media against China?"

No, but news articles do not tend to pick up the good things in life because no one is interested.

Newspapers around the world do not sing the praises of how great the west is. Normally, a typical western newspaper would have articles of protectionism, incest, labour strikes, gay priests, failings of politicians/businessmen etc, but do these articles paint an accurate picture of the west? Of course not. So when you read bad news about China, do not take it for granted that China is all bad.



"If the Chinese are concerned about how China is perceived by the world, then stop acting like Red Guards and acting violently. Adopt an attitude that CNN, BBC, or whoever, got it wrong and rationally make China’s case. China does have a case.

If the Chinese are concerned about how China is perceived by the world, calm down. Drop the “in your face” stuff. It isn’t working. It is just more for the halfwits at CNN to use. Understand others besides Chinese have feelings and dignity. Understand violence and belligerence sends a message that adds to the Western perception of China."

I agree with you totally. But it is easier to say than to do. The problem is that many Chinese are not taught to think independently and are normally conformist in nature. When many young Chinese with access to the internet see posts against the west and calls for boycotts in message boards, it is easy for them to get caught up in a herd mentality.

Apart from more transparency in the media, there needs to be more interaction between Chinese and westerners. The growing numbers of westerners in Beijing and Shanghai would assist the process of mutual understanding but the vast majority of Chinese do not see westerners that often and so it would take some time.

Nonetheless, despite the angry rhetoric, most Chinese do not hate foreigners. They are mostly indifferent.


I am an European citizen who, almost every morning gives a look at BBC news, New York Times, The Economist, Reuters news. In the week-end I also have a look at the Guardian, the FT and Washington Post, Liberation, le Monde, CNN, Voice of America, der Spiegel, La Repubblica and the Times. Xinhua and CCTV.
I am not a journalist not a politician, I am a simple citizen that do like to be informed about the events on this planet.
Can you chinese compare your "press freedom" to this "freedom of choice"? After having created my opinion upon this free press I can still and freely say that every day goes by my dislike for China is increasing and not the contrary. Can you still say my view is biased? Is there a coalition of western media against China?
The chinese style of argumentation is poor, rude, repetitive to bore, offensive, agressive and frightening. I have desperately been looking for a "reasonable voice" in the sea of comments inside the dozens of blogs attended by chinese too and could get only two (2). They were 2 dissidents.



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