

Pokemon RBY In-Game Tiers - Mark III


  1. atsync

    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Mar 28, 2011
    I support adding Rival battles to match-ups, but I'd rather leave all the elite 4/gym leaders in.

    So far the tiering of these 5 will probably be:

    Abra - Top
    Articuno - Top
    Bulbasaur (RB) - High
    Charmander (RB) - High
    Diglett - Top

    I'll move Bulbasaur and Charmander down.

    EDIT: I'm honestly not convinced that not having to face Rival's Gyarados if you pick Charmander is enough to put it in Top, although I should say that I almost always run an electric move of some sort on my teams (whether it be an Electric type or Nidoking/Queen) so obviously Gyarados is just death fodder and never a threat to me.

    Regarding changes (open)

    Add mentions of Rival battles.

    • Add Thunder Wave to Movepool as a way of crippling threatening Pokemon like Misty's Starmie. Thunder Wave should probably be added to match-ups where it is relevent also. Leave Seismic Toss as is.
    • Remove references to Jolteon's Pin Missile. I'd rather leave in the part saying that it's weak to Bug just to demonstrate how crappy Bug is (which is yet another reason why Psychic is so good in 1st gen).
    • From additional comments, tone down the "useless for 4-8 levels" comment. Instead, maybe just say that it doesn't have any good STAB attacks until it evolves into Kadabra which limits its power when you first catch it, or something like that.
    • From availability, reword the "This is Abra's only flaw" part; as mentioned above, it also lacks power until Kadabra even if it isn't entirely useless.
    • Remove the stalemate stuff.
    • Remove references to Water/Rock types in the type section.
    Bulbasaur (RB)
    • Discuss lack of power before Razor Leaf, especially if Body Slam is unavailable. Bulbasaur can struggle from Route 3 to Nugget Bridge because of low power moves and limited coverage.
    • Can beat Brock without Vine Whip using Leech Seed and Growl. Worth noting because Vine Whip requires grinding to get before Brock.
    Charmander (RB)
    • Charmander sucks against Misty, but it can at least play some sort of supporting role, especially if Starmie acts dumb. Match-up entry for Misty could be less negative.
    • Should consider match-ups where Dig isn't being used, to emphasize just how much Charmander wants Dig. Power section could probably discuss how weak it is without TM moves before Slash, although it has a reasonable chance of getting at least one of Body Slam, Dig and Mega Punch.
    • Mention how Rival battles are easier if you pick Charmander because he won't use Gyarados (this will probably be covered in match-ups anyway).

    • Change style of match-up section to match the style of others.

    I have a feeling I've forgotten something. If I have (or if anyone has other information that hasn't been mentioned yet), speak up.

    I haven't implemented these changes yet. Instead, I'll add a to-do list to the OP. That way, others who are interested in participating can make the changes if they wish. Just post that you've made a change and I'll remove it from the list.


    I guess we can move onto the next Pokemon then!

    Just like before, you should be answering these questions:

    The Pokemon up this time will be:
    • Nidoran F
    Nidoran F (open)
    -Nidoran-F - Top Tier


    • Nidoran M
    Nidoran M (open)
    -Nidoran-M - Top Tier


    • Seel
    Seel (open)
    -Seel - Top Tier
    -Availability: Seel is catchable in the Seafoam Islands, but the best way to obtain this is from the trade on Cinnabar Island. In RB, you trade Ponyta for Seel. In Yellow, you trade Growlithe for Dewgong. Cinnabar Island seems a bit late, since you need to at least beat Koga to get there. However, Seel/Dewgong is still great because it comes at the right place at the right time. The Pokémon you are trading away is found easily in the Pokémon Mansion nearby. It will generally be caught in the mid-30 level range. Once you trade for your Seel/Dewgong, you can teach it Surf and then head back to Pokémon Mansion. It will happily beat the Fire trainers here, gaining a ton of experience as a result. If you have Seel, it should evolve into Dewgong quite quickly. At the end of it you’ll have the Blizzard TM which you can use if you like (it isn’t necessary though). Once the Mansion is done, you can head straight to the Cinnabar gym and gather experience there. At the end of this, you should have a Dewgong that will have caught up to your team (and then some, should you choose to go overboard). You now have a powerful Water type obtained with little effort to assist you through the last trainers of the game (i.e. the Elite 4).
    -Power: When you first get it, it has enough power to beat what it needs to beat: Fire types. Once you defeat them, you’ll gain a massive level/power boost, allowing you to contribute against everything else. Conveniently, Water/Ice is an excellent type combo late game so you’ll be powering through things easily regardless.
    -Type: Again, Water/Ice is excellent at the point you get it in the game. It covers most of the Elite 4 by itself. From a defensive point of view Water/Ice is a bit shaky (weak to Rock, Fighting, Grass and Electric), although this isn't really that important against most regular trainers.
    -Match-ups: Blaine – You can potentially sweep him with Surf. In Yellow it is a bit more difficult since Ninetales is stronger than Growlithe and Ponyta, but you’ll definitely contribute and even if you lose this particular battle you’ll still beat all of the other trainers.
    Giovanni – Surf has perfect coverage against everything except Persian in Yellow, who you can still beat if you are in good shape. Just watch for Thunder and Rock Slide and you’ll be fine.
    Lorelei – This is probably the worst match-up that Dewgong will likely face. You can’t do much to each other. If you have a Normal move like Body Slam it will help you out a bit, but there are better choices for Lorelei than Dewgong. Surf is fine for Jynx though.
    Bruno – You beat Onix with Surf and you can even beat the others with powerful special attacks. Machamp is probably the most dangerous thing since it is the best prepared for surviving Surf, but at a good level (which isn’t unreasonable given the boosted experience) you’ll beat that too.
    Blue – Your STABs cover Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard, Arcanine, Sandslash, Ninetales and Flareon. The Water types can be taken on, although there are more efficient choices.


    • Squirtle (RB)
    Squirtle (RB) (open)
    Squirtle (RB): Top Tier
    -Type: Water.
    --Giovanni: Same as Blaine.


    • Zapdos
    Zapdos (open)
    Zapdos - Top Tier

    i.e. the other half of Top tier. Discuss whichever ones you want.
  2. Mekkah

    Super Moderator

    Feb 8, 2005
    I agree with this. Even if you don't have Thunderbolt, the AI is just too dumb to make Gyarados a real threat. I didn't even know it had Hydro Pump in the Pokemon Tower and I definitely didn't have Thunderbolt on every single team by then. Even if it was somehow a threat to your team and you still don't have anything to deal with it yet, you can just catch something that can.

    I think the Nidorans, Squirtle and Zapdos are in the right place, and Seel probably is. If Seel is to be pushed down, it's because of availability and the lesser relevance of X Accuracy + OHKO that we agreed upon.
  3. TM13IceBeam


    Oct 22, 2010
    Both Nidos are fine in Top. Being able to fully evolve by Mt. Moon is amazing, and these two have the coverage and stats to tank most enemies. Water Gun is decent filler (and works for killing Geodudes for free EXP), you can upgrade this to Bubblebeam/Surf later for even more win against Blaine and Giovanni. Normal/Water is also perfect coverage, too. The Nidos don't really have much differences from one another (Body Slam vs. Thrash, their offenses are roughly similar). In short, awesome.

    Seel, I don't really have much comment or opinion on its tiering.

    RB Squirtle is top tier for sure, he cleanly cheeses Brock and is actually one of the few guys decent enough to take on Starmie (resistance to bubblebeam + mega punch abuse). Normal/Water has perfect coverage on everything so you don't really need anything else other than Ice Beam/Blizzard for Lance. The gyms he struggle in, are easily cheesed by random things that can be found conveniently outside town (Dugtrio for Surge, Doduo for Erika) and he has a neutral matchup to most things making him a great choice for any situation.

    Zapdos is available for Erika if you skip her initially, but Erika is again one of the easier gym leaders due to presence of Doduo. An epic boss in E4, walled by only Onix and Rhydon, both of which can be taken out easily with Surf. Belongs right at home in top: he wins most matchups that exist by virtue of typing and stats, and even without TM24 he's still decent.
  4. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Sep 25, 2005
    1.) Charmander: Gyarados is strong but I wouldn't say he is significance enough to move Charmander up a tier.

    2.) Nidoran F: On the Giovanni battle mention Nidoquen is weak to Earthquake (which is common in Yellow).

    3.) Nidoran M / Seel / Squirtle / Zapdos: Fine.
  5. Longfellow


    Mar 30, 2009
    Leer + Horn Attack. It works, though very slowly and you may need a Potion or two. Still, NidoranM is probably the best Pokémon to beat RB Brock besides the starters and Caterpie (but does not need babying so is overall better) (Also Poison Sting doesn't work—Brock has several Full Heals).

    Here's a good moment to talk about traded Pokémon. We do this thing where we list each Pokémon by their lowest evolved form, even though you could, say, catch Haunter already evolved. It works for the most part, but note that you can run NidoranM - traded NidoranF - Nidoqueen or NidoranM - Nidorino - traded Nidorina - Nidoqueen. These "evolutionary lines" actually have their own perks—namely, the use of NidoranM's Horn Attack during the hard Route 3, and then the exp. boosted Nidoqueen for mid- to late-game. Are they better than the main lines? Maybe not, it's hard to give up that final-form power in early-game, but they're probably a top tier threat in their own right and worth mentioning in our entries.

    The question, of course, is whether we put the analysis in NidoranM (because it is NidoranM's "evolutionary line") or in NidoranF. NidoranF makes most sense to me, but then we should rename it Nidoqueen. And then we should rename all the Pokémon after their final form. We already do this for the Eeveelutions, and trades are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing—alternate evolutionary paths.

    Only thing that gives me pause about Seel is I really don't know what's required of a late-game Pokémon to be top tier. Seel is clearly better than Tentacool/Staryu and clearly worse than Zapdos/Articuno, and it can't really be compared to, like, Clefairy or Squirtle. It's just floating there.
  6. atsync

    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Mar 28, 2011
    I'm considering moving Seel down to High. I know that there were a few people in the last thread that weren't convinced by Seel in Top. Even in this thread there has been at least one person who isn't convinced, and those who do say Top have been more like "I suppose..." rather than "yeah Seel is totally Top". Based on this response, it seems to be borderline High-Top and my instinct in these situations (as I've said before in the old thread) is to go with the lower Tier because it's safer. And I say this as the guy that wrote Seel's entry! I'll think about it more.

    I'll address the other stuff later.
  7. Dilasc


    Feb 4, 2007
    Maybe it's just me, but NidoF is better than the male. Sure for a small while, Horn Attack is better than Scratch, but that's only for 15 levels and the Nidos level very fast meaning this duration is short lived.

    Nidoqueen doesn't demand as much TM usage so unless you're using MissingNo, I'd rather have Queen's free Body Slam rather than King's less controllable Thrash which you might very well replace with Body Slam.
  8. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Sep 25, 2005
    Should Charmander's RB & Y analysis be merged since they are both in high tier now?
  9. Mekkah

    Super Moderator

    Feb 8, 2005
    I would argue that by the time we get the free Body Slam, there isn't much improving to be done on the Nido's since by then you have their godlike stats and quite a few good TMs. Their early stage is when they are most lacking, and thus when improvement is most significant.
  10. atsync

    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Mar 28, 2011
    It depends on whether we even leave Yellow Charmander in High, and even then many would argue that the difference in availability is significant enough to justify separate entries regardless of tier placement. We'll figure it out later.
  11. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie

    Aug 16, 2007
    Great move to make Atsync the OP (applause)

    You still have Sandshrew High - Geodude Mid

    I thought we agreed Geodude >= Sandshrew, most likely moving Sandshrew down. (I also think Sandshrew down is the right move)


    Also, Giovanni is pretty inconsequential in general-- while the first battle you don't have access to Surf, which is clearly a hindrance, you do have the TMs for Bubblebeam, Ice Beam, Psychic, and Mega Drain. Not to mention his team's weak to DIG. If you honestly can't find ANYTHING in your team to use 1 or 2 of those moves well, I'm sorry but you must be trying to lose.

    If somehow (I have no idea how) you can't beat Kanghaskan... maybe try the Submission TM sold at Celadon? Or Counter.
  12. Longfellow


    Mar 30, 2009
    I think Nidoking is a bit better because Horn Attack comes at a more critical point in the game than Thrash/Body Slam. And Nidoking has slightly better stats. But whatever, they're close and both top tier.

    After some thought, I agree with Seel in High. Even though it is the best late Water, the differences between any two Waters is small.
  13. TM13IceBeam


    Oct 22, 2010
    My opinion is that if both A and B are capable of significant contributions to an efficient clear of the game, then it does not matter if A has a higher level of competency than B, since both are essentially top tier as far as it goes. If there IS ordering in terms of 'more efficient' in the tiers itself, then Nidoking > Nidoqueen, but otherwise both should just be top and that should be about it.
  14. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Oct 12, 2012
    My opinion is the exact opposite, since Nidoking/Queen will be using mostly Special moves for most of the game, having a higher defense makes Queen slightly better than King (they have the same Special). Of course, that's my opinion, but I'd like to see if other people think the same.
  15. Longfellow


    Mar 30, 2009
    The Nidos uses physical in early- (Horn Attack/Scratch/Body Slam/Thrash) and late- (Earthquake) game. As they are the most challenging parts of the game, I think they count a bit more.
  16. atsync

    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Mar 28, 2011
    At this point the tiering for these guys will be:

    Nidoran-F - Top
    Nidoran-M - Top
    Seel - High
    Squirtle (RB) - Top
    Zapdos - Top

    So I'll move Seel down.

    Changes (open)
    • Mention weakness to Ground moves for the Giovanni gym battle (mainly for the Yellow battle).
    • Mention the traded Nidoran-F and Nidorina in availability. It is probably better to just use a Nidoran-F caught wild but the traded ones are there and worth noting.
    • Changed tier, may need revamp.

    Not much to change this time apparently, although something will probably be brought up later. I'll add these to the to-do list.

    Don't worry, I didn't forget. It's just that no new entry was done for it, so I thought I might as well just leave things as is until we get up to Sandshrew during this QC thing going on at the moment.

    If we do equalise Sandshrew and Geodude, I too would prefer to drop Sandshrew rather than raise Geodude, but we'll see what happens when we get up to it.


    Let's move onto the next Pokemon. We're breaking into High tier now.

    Just like before, you should be answering these questions:

    The Pokemon up this time will be:
    • Charmander (Y)
    Charmander (Y) (open)
    -Charmander (Yellow) - High Tier
    -Stats: Charizard’s stats are reasonably balanced. 100 Speed is great for in-game runs, and 84 Attack and 85 Special are acceptable. 78/78/85 bulk gives Charizard reasonable defensive capabilities, allowing it to takes hits now and then.
    -Power: It should be said that Charmander goes through a bit of a lag phase as Charmeleon, but with Dig (and later Slash) it can pull its weight. Once it evolves it becomes excellent. Charizard is a great in-game Pokémon, powering through opponents with ease.
    -Type: It learns Fly and Flamethrower, which have good coverage (although Charizard will be using Slash and Dig for the most part). Defensively, it has a niche as a Fire type that is immune to Ground. Water, Rock, Ice and Electric weaknesses aren’t helpful but in most battles they are irrelevant because Charizard will kill opponents before they move.
    -Match-ups: Misty - Bad match-up, but Charmeleon with Dig can still act as a supporting attacker for teams lacking a specific answer to her team (e.g. finishing off Starmie after it's weakened and paralyzed).
    Erika – The sad thing is that Ember is not that powerful despite the type advantage, but the grass resistance should be enough for you to contribute. Dig is neutral against Gloom and Weepinbell which is handy.
    Sabrina – Slash deals plenty of damage on her Pokémon’s lower defence stat. As long as you are at a reasonable level you should be fine.

    -Additional Comments: The main thing that prevents Charmander being Top tier in Yellow is that it arrives underleveled. However, this is actually easy to overcome and you still benefit from Charizard’s great power, making it a solid choice for an efficient run through Yellow.

    • Clefairy
    Clefairy (open)
    Clefairy - High Tier
    Availability: Clefairy can be caught in Mt. Moon but are uncommon (highest encounter rate in Red and Blue is 6%). Their levels range from 8 to 12. They evolve via Moon Stone, which is also available in Mt. Moon. Clefairy should be evolved immediately as they do not learn any useful moves by level-up. If the low encounter rate turns you off, you can buy one in the Rocket Game Corner for 500 coins in Red and 750 coins in Blue. It is inexpensive but underleveled, so it is recommended to be patient in Mt. Moon instead.
    Stats: Clefable's average stats, high HP, and fast exp. rate make it a Pokémon that is moderately powerful and very bulky.
    Movepool: As Clefairy's level-up movepool is barren (though Sing can be useful), it relies on TMs. Fortunately it learns most of them and can mix and match based on the needs of your team. Useful TMs it can learn include Mega Punch, Water Gun, Bubblebeam, Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt and Thunder, Ice Beam and Blizzard, Psychic, Body Slam, Tri Attack, Double-Edge, and Hyper Beam. Some of these moves are both low-demand and extra-tasty, such as Psychic and Bubblebeam. Even if you run a TM-heavy party, however, Clefairy's omnivorousness ensures that it will have a strong moveset with some coverage, though its exact moves vary from run to run.
    Power: Clefairy's peak power is in Mt. Moon and immediately thereafter as Clefairy's Mega Punch is your strongest possible move at that point. Due to Normal STAB, Clefairy's Mega Punch, Body Slam, Tri Attack, or Strength will continue to be strong (if not exceptionally so) throughout the whole game. Clefairy can also swing hard from the special side, especially with Psychic which commonly has type advantage in first generation's Poison-heavy atmosphere.
    Type: Clefairy usually hits and gets hit for neutral damage.
    Match-ups: It is difficult to cover all of Clefairy's many movesets. This write-up assumes Clefairy, as a base, learned Mega Punch in Mt. Moon and continues to use a strong Normal STAB throughout the game.
    -Misty: Clefable is the best non-Grass Pokémon at defeating Misty, given its peerless bulk and power at this part of the game. It can take 3 non-critical Bubblebeams from Starmie and can 3HKO it with Mega Punch. This matchup favors you considering Misty likes to mess around with Tackle and Water Gun. Sing and Thunder Wave can also help your odds.
    -Lt. Surge: Clefable can withstand 2 to 3 Thunderbolts from Raichu and 2HKO back with Mega Punch. However, Raichu's faster, so you may have to rely on a lucky critical or a bad move choice by Raichu. As before, Thunder Wave or Sing can help.
    -Erika: Clefable should be able to power through with its Normal moves, but it risks being trapped by Victreebel's Wrap or Erika's various status moves. If Clefable knows Ice Beam or Psychic, the battle will go somewhat more smoothly.
    -Koga: Clefable dislikes the defensive standard of Koga's Pokémon and needs some luck to outpace him in damage. However, Clefable can sweep him. Psychic makes the battle much easier and a status move like Sing and Thunder Wave couldn't hurt, especially against Muk and Weezing.
    -Sabrina: Clefable's physical power and special bulk make it an excellent choice for this fight. It can win by the brute force of its Normal moves, though Alakazam can ruin your sweep if it decides to use Psychic.
    -Blaine: Clefable should sweep. Rapidash's Fire Spin and Arcanine's Fire Blast hurt, though, and it is possible to lose if Blaine chooses his moves well, which is rare.
    -Giovanni: Clefable should use whatever Special move it may have to defeat Rhyhorn and Rhydon as it will not make progress with its Normal moves. Dugtrio, Nidoqueen, and Nidoking can be beaten in a more straightforward fashion, especially if Giovanni spends his time applying Guard Spec. instead of attacking; they do occasionally put up a fight. In Yellow, his Nidoqueen and Rhydon can actually pose an offensive threat, making things overall more dangerous for Clefable, who will get worn down quite quickly when fighting Dugtrio and Persian alone.
    -Lorelei: Clefable with Thunderbolt or Thunder can damage Lorelei's Pokémon and, with items such as X Special, even orchestrate a sweep. If Clefable doesn't have Thunderbolt, however, it does not like the physical bulk of Lorelei's Pokémon and struggles to beat more than one in a row.
    -Agatha: Even if Clefable knows Psychic, Agatha is a rough battle and you should not expect to sweep her. Without Psychic Clefable can not make satisfactory progress against her Ghosts.
    -Lance: Clefable can challenge the Dragonair with its Normal moves but will probably be overpowered if it challenges Lance's other Dragons that way. Thunder or Thunderbolt allows it to defeat Gyarados whereas Ice Beam or Blizzard expediates the rest of the fight.
    -Rival: Clefable's chances against each of Rival's Pokémon depends on its moveset. It can always defeat Pidgeot, Arcanine, and Exeggutor. With Ice Beam, Blizzard, or Psychic it can challenge Venusaur and Rhydon; with Thunderbolt or Thunder it can challenge Gyarados and Blastoise; with any of those Electric or Ice moves it can challenge Charizard. With Thunder Wave or Sing it improves its odds against everyone and enables Alakazam to be beaten too.

    Additional Comments: Its game-long power through high stats, Normal STAB, and elemental coverage is enough on its own to make Clefable one of the better Pokémon in the game. Its ability to fill any role your team is missing, whether it be a Water Gun/Bubblebeam user to defeat early-game Rocks or Psychic to defeat the Rocket Poisons or Thunderbolt to ream the Flying and Water Pokémon leading up to Cinnabar, is what makes Clefable a truly good teammate.

    • Doduo
    Doduo (open)
    - Doduo - High Tier








    • Farfetch'd (RB)
    Farfetch'd (RB) (open)
    Farfetch'd (RB) - High Tier
    Availability: Spearow can be traded for Farfetch'd in Vermilion City. Spearow themselves are common in the early routes and can be found up to level 17 just outside Vermilion.
    Stats: Farfetch'd's base stats are all near 60. Its low stats are somewhat redeemed by the exp. bonus it gets from being an outsider. When you account for its extra levels, Farfetch'd is roughly equivalent to a Pokémon with base 90 attack and its other stats at base 75, which is unremarkable but acceptable.
    Movepool: Farfetch'd has a narrow but coherent movepool. It can learn Body Slam, Double-Edge, and Fly by TM and HM—these are its attacks for most of the game. At level 23 it learns Swords Dance, making it much more dangerous against bosses and other multi-Pokémon trainers, and at level 39 it learns Slash, an immensely powerful move that can one-shot many opponents. Agility, which it learns at level 31, is a decent replacement for one of the above moves that allows it to avoid hits and better sweep bosses. Farfetch'd can also make a good HM slave with the unusual combination of Cut and Fly.
    Power: Due to its STAB on Body Slam and Fly, coupled with Swords Dance, as well as its late-game Slash (which is unaffected by the Swords Dance attack boosts but does much more damage without setup), Farfetch'd is an offensive juggernaut.
    Type: Farfetch'd both hits and gets hit for neutral damage most of the time.
    -Lt. Surge: Raichu OHKO's Farfetch'd.
    -Erika: Farfetch'd should win with Fly. It cannot OHKO Victreebel, unfortunately, which leaves it open to Sleep Powder.
    -Koga: Farfetch'd can set up on the first Koffing, though Smokescreen can complicate your sweep. Muk's Sludge and Weezing's Selfdestruct will probably kill you if they hit.
    -Sabrina: Kadabra and Alakazam are strong enough to two-shot Farfetch'd at least, so if you're going for a sweep you have to hope they choose other moves. Your best strategy is probably to leave Kadabra to one of your other Pokémon and set up your Swords Dance (and Agility, if you have it) on Mr. Mime.
    -Blaine: Farfetch'd's newly-learned Slash will ream Blaine's gym, 2HKOing even his bulky Arcanine. You could also set up Swords Dance as usual.
    -Giovanni: As silly as it looks, Farfetch'd can Swords Dance on Giovanni's Rhyhorn and sweep his team. It will have to endure residual damage and there are Pokémon who can beat Rhyhorn and Rhydon faster. Farfetch'd can also outpower Giovanni's non-Rock Pokémon with Slash.
    -Lorelei: Farfetch'd can set up against Slowbro and sweep through Jynx and Lapras. It can win individually against Dewgong but will get heavily damaged. Cloyster's high defense and Aurora Beam will defeat Farfetch'd.
    -Agatha: Farfetch'd must risk various status effects to beat Agatha's Pokémon. It faces additional problems setting up a sweep in that the attack boosts from Swords Dance will increase confusion damage and Golbat can Haze away its boosts. Farfetch'd can usually beat Agatha's Pokémon individually but a sweep is unlikely.
    -Lance: Farfetch'd is too frail to survive Lance's heavy attacks.
    -Rival: Farfetch'd does not like Alakazam but can win in a pinch if Alakazam does not use Psychic or Psybeam. It also struggles against the sheer power of Gyarados, Blastoise, and Charizard. A Farfetch'd with both Swords Dance and Agility can set up a full sweep on Rival's Pidgeot; if only Swords Dance, then it can set up against Rhydon and hopefully make it to Rival's last Pokémon.

    Additional comments: Farfetch'd is a much more serious Pokémon than it looks. It makes up for mediocre speed and bulk and slight TM dependence with its great power. It one- or two-shots most common enemies and matches well against most bosses. Be careful not to exceed the level at which you can control outsiders, though, or your greatest ally can turn into your worst nightmare.

    • Gastly
    Gastly (open)
    Gastly/Haunter - High Tier


    • Hitmonlee
    Hitmonlee (open)
    Hitmonlee - High Tier

    Comment on whatever you wish. Note that if you think Yellow Charmander should stay in High, you could also discuss whether we should just merge it with RB Charmander, or it the difference between the two is enough to justify separate entries.
  17. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie

    Aug 16, 2007
    How would you guys feel about general overviews for entries? In Smogon's strategy dexes, I feel that the general overviews are the most interesting and useful part of the anlysis--especially to people unfamiliar with the subject. I think having a general, basic overview (similar to the "additional comments" of some analyses) of two or three sentences describing the role and overall effectiveness of a Pokemon would be fun to write, and also effective information. I think this would also be a good place to mention alternative Pokemon who have a similar role to other important competition.


    Overview: Sandshrew is a decent early game Ground-type (something you'll at least need to beat Lt. Surge), with decent stats and decent movepool with Slash + Ground-STAB giving it power and coverage. It is kind of a fusion between Geodude and Digglet, whom unfortunately, tend to overshadow Sandshrew. Geodude has better end stats, comes earlier, and its Rock type packs very good resistances (stops Explosions) and offensive ability; while Digglet is more efficient, being faster, coming at a higher level, getting Slash more easily and learning Dig naturally. Nevertheless, despite being outclassed in general, Sandslash is a solid mid-tier poke that can do its job effectively.

    Overview: A late game Water-type is extremely valuable to any efficient run, and Staryu/Starmie certain comes with some attractive features-- including blistering Speed, good Special and learning relatively rare and extremely effective offensive moves in Thunderbolt/Thunder and STAB Psychic--that give it a unique edge over the competition. However, Staryu does come very late and underleveled, so overall it tends to be much less efficient than competition like the traded Seel or Vaporeon.

    Overview: Butterfree is an interesting early game support Pokemon, that evolves quickly and gets Confusion to help Charmander users get past Brock. In the long run though, Butterfree's pitiful stats and lack of any form of real offensive ability cripple it for most of the mid to late game. Generally speaking, one should figure out how to get through the early stages of this game without relying on Butterfail.
  18. TM13IceBeam


    Oct 22, 2010
    Yellow Charmander's fine in High, and it should probably be merged with RB Charmander too (aka RB Charmander drops to High)

    Doduo is fine too, raping Erika immediately for free EXP is always a good thing when it comes to catching up as well as reliable STABs.

    SD at L23 pretty much seals the deal for RB Farfy, not to mention boosted EXP. High.

    For the remaining, I think they can probably drop a tier. Clefairy might have the highest chance of staying in High, Gastly has massive TM reliance, Hitmonlee is just meh-ish. Gengar requires 3 unique TMs just to be able to use stuff that is not /lick/ (or fucking dream eater), while Hitmonlee regularly runs into matchups that he has quite the issues with (he's crap against the first three gyms he's available, he's crap against rocket except for raticates, he's crap against agatha). Sure, he does kill Lorelei effectively, but i'm really stuck as to whether he's good enough for High. Mid might sound better.
  19. Mekkah

    Super Moderator

    Feb 8, 2005

    Such as? Don't tell me this matters vs Koga.


    Actually, in Yellow, all of his Venonats carry Psychic according to Bulbapedia. So it's a terrible choice.

    Only in Yellow, and only if the AI randomly picks the right moves (it won't). In RB, its only Special move is Water Gun.

    Clefairy is just as TM reliant as Gastly. That said, I have used Clefable (on a Normal Mono run for OIP) and I actually really liked it. I did have a lot of TMs to spare, but Clefable's stats are very solid at the point you evolve it and it doesn't really drop off at any point. Even though it requires some kind of TM usage to become and stay useful, it learns so many that you'll always have something for it.

    Gastly does not need three TMs to do something that isn't Dream Eater. It only needs one, and it becomes a wrecker with either Psychic or Thunderbolt. If you don't have either to spare though, this is actually a really bad Pokemon line. Since it's also significantly less available than the Pokemon it's being compared to, I'd say Gastly can go Mid. There's a lot of Pokemon that completely rely on either of these to become viable (think Magnemite, Voltorb, Exeggcute...).

    RB and Y Charmander are similar enough to be merged, probably, as long as their differences are noted thoroughly in the entry.

    I think the entries are long enough as it is, sometimes even repeating the same thing over and over. As I said before, I think the Power part is redundant. Pokemon aren't being compared in a vacuum: we use the matchup and the movepool parts to describe how they fare in battle with which resources. We don't need a third entry to talk about how good a STAB Earthquake from 100 base attack is.
  20. TM13IceBeam


    Oct 22, 2010
    Ah, got a minor bit misled by the entry. Still, Gastly seems really pointless if you don't have the TMs, and the unfortunate thing is that they all happen to be one-off TMs. It's not like say Sandshrew or Charmander where they still can do something without Dig.

    I'm on the fence over Clefairy and TM reliance. You can just about dump Mega Punch on it immediately for a nice attack move, and although it's special movepool needs some one-off TMs (seriously why are all the special TMs one-off .____________. the only one that isn't is fucking surf) it can at least still rely on Normal STAB, if you don't mind Mega Kick's accuracy.

    Hitmonlee... idk it just has a bunch of matchups that it just completely flop in. I'm honestly on the fence as to whether it deserves High seeing as Jump Kick isn't the most reliable of moves, but it's still better than most other fighting-types (except maybe yellow machamp)
  21. Lucchini


    May 6, 2011
    Hitmonlee could go down to Mid, I feel. Not the best game to be a fighting-type in. Clefable is comparable to the Nidofamily if given the Mega Punch TM; I think early evolution + performance against Misty gives it enough credit for High tier, but it can do so many things with contested TMs that it'll end up doing a lot of other things as well.

    Clefable definitely plays better than Farfetch'd; not sure how I feel about the importance of SD with highly frequent crits in this generation.
  22. Mekkah

    Super Moderator

    Feb 8, 2005
    If Mega Kick is a major problem you can just use Body Slam, not a whole lot of things want that (Bulbasaur is the main one, you prolly aren't using any other Normal dudes). The Special TMs being one-offs is annoying, but there's just so many of them...

    If you crit after one SD, it doesn't really change a thing I think. And it only has like 11% crit instead of 6.25%.
  23. TM13IceBeam


    Oct 22, 2010
    It's actually a big thing when it comes to Farfetch'd since the main move of choice is usually slash which is auto-crit
  24. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie

    Aug 16, 2007
    Also, it's fine that the Farfetch'd analysis comments on its battling prowess more, but I don't like that the emphasis on its HM slave abilities have all but been taken out of the analysis. Simply put, without the absolutely awesome utility of Cut + Fly, Farfetch'd does NOT make high... as even the current analysis says, even adjusted for boosted EXP it's an average battler at best.

    There is absolutely no way Farfetch'd outranks (or even matches) Pokemon like Geodude, Magikarp, Spearow (lol), and belsprout/bulbasaur(y)/oddish based on its fighting abilities alone.

    There is NO fucking way Farfetch'd belongs in the SAME tier as Charizard, Snorlax, Jynx, Seel, and Vaporeon/Jolteon based on battling alone. Here's a better comparison: If I want an amazing boosted EXP Sweeper that appears in Vermillion/Diglett Cave area, Mr. Mime is 100x more impressive than Farfeth'd battling. But you've put them in the same tier while barely commenting on Farfetch'd's HM utility.

    We all know that 50%+ of why Farfetch'd is sitting there in high is due to the fact that you get it right when CUT appears, and that Cut is still extremely convenient to have on the team all the while you're flying around between Lavender/Fushia/Celadon/Saffron. So why did you change it to have only one sentence about it?

    So the analysis shouldn't say "it can be a good HM slave.", it should have retained that "Farfetch'd is the BEST HM slave. Cut + Fly is so useful that Farfetch'd belongs on almost EVERY RB team, in this role at the very least."

    Read: Farfetch'd belongs in EVERY RB run because of (Cut+Fly). How does that only get 1 sentence in its in-game analysis?
  25. Dilasc


    Feb 4, 2007
    Clefairy does have the advantage of having the earliest evasion boosting move in the game save for Yellow Pikachu. Whether it's a good thing is more debatable, but it's definitely not useless.

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