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Messages - Mick Lunzer

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General / Tips for 3D with bearings
« on: July 14, 2017, 07:04:40 AM »

Tricks / Re: 3d low to High
« on: August 26, 2010, 06:25:40 AM »
Thanks a lot guys, this helps. I feel like I have been stuck on this way to long. I am excited to work on it with the new suggestions. I will let you know how it goes.

Tricks / 3d low to High
« on: August 16, 2010, 05:58:30 AM »
I can do 3d low and 3d high., but I can't seem to make the transition from low to high. The rhythm and timing seem to be off.

When I see people do it in videos, they seem to "just do it" but I don't seem to be able to copy the motions. Does any one have any tips? If this is already on the forum could someone direct me to it. Thanks

Tricks / 3d low to high
« on: September 19, 2008, 05:45:15 AM »
I have 3d low down well with a few tricks and I can do 3d high 20-30 throws. I am having trouble going from 3 low to 3 high.  I don't seem to be able to get the timing.  I searched the archives but didn't find anything.  Looking for advice.

General / Re: String Theory and Time
« on: September 07, 2007, 05:02:04 AM »
Another thought on string length.
A longer string gives you the option of a longer dwell time. You can shorten this time by catching the diabolo closer to the center of a long string. With a short string you do not have an option to make dwell time longer.

This means a longer string is going to give you more options than a short string.

General / Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« on: August 11, 2007, 05:06:00 AM »
Thank you Donald,
Not for the post, but for the books and expanding what is possible for all of us.


p.s. I stole some of your tricks

General / Re: String Theory and Time
« on: August 10, 2007, 07:57:28 PM »
For those of you following this thread, I had an observation that changes the theory.

It's is about speed and distance traveled on the string rather than time spent on the string.

I have been going on the assumption that the time the diabolo spends on the string influences the trajectory, this is only partly true.
The time spent on the string can be easily varied (lowering our hand as we catch to slow the momentum or lifting the hands after the catch to speed up the momentum) This is another one of those things I have been doing for years and never thought about until today.

I was working on three high and I threw one diabolo too low. To catch up I accelerated the next diabolo (By pulling up with my right hand) on the string to make sure it traveled the distance on the string I wanted it to before I threw it.

This suggests that dwell time or time on the string is not as important as the distance the diabolo travels from stick to stick.

Here is the theory as it stands at the moment. This is for moving diabolos only. This does not include a static diabolo sitting in the center of the string.

-The distance the diabolo travels the ESL (effective string length) influences and may be the largest determining factor for trajectory (direction) of a thrown diabolo.

-Effective string length is determined by where you catch the diabolo on the string.  Catching a diabolo near the right hand stick gives you a longer ESL than if you catch it in the middle of the string or close to the left hand stick. (reverse is true for left handers)

Actual string length influences ESL (a longer actual string can give you a longer ESL.)

A diabolo thrown at the beginning of it's effective string length (early) will tend to travel to the left.  A diabolo thrown near the end of it's ESL will tend travel to the right.

Dwell time can be varied by lowering hands as you make a catch (slowing momentum) and raising hands after catch (accelerating momentum).

Thats all I got for now does this make sense? Does it match your own observations?


General / Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« on: August 10, 2007, 06:59:46 PM »
Right on Sean!

Thanks for the link
Looks like has been covered.

General / Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« on: August 10, 2007, 04:33:22 AM »
What is an obvious signature trick?
Did you know the string climb was once a someones signature trick. So was the darkside catch, A whip catch, and a magic knot. These are obvious now, but not fifteen years ago, I was there. So how much time needs to go by before it is no longer a signature trick? The common tricks didn't start out as common.

    When I did a vertex genocide, at the Mondo juggling convention someone commented "Wow your are a regular Matt Hall." As sad as that was to me ( Matt, You big Dork)  That vertex genocide is a Matt Hall signature trick, Matt didn't invent it, but he performed it at a lot of conventions and when people see that trick they think of Matt as this person did.

  2d around the world into a left sun followed by a right sun was one of my signature tricks, (See Canadian National Championship videos in Winnipeg '91'92'93 If any one still has a VHS Copy) Ask the other old timers if you don't believe me.  People started doing it right after the diabolo open in 91 the minute I finished my routine. Fair game? Yes. I still do the trick, It would be silly now for me to say others are stealing my signature move, but it is happening.......even the diabology guys have done it. (those rat bastards)
There are a lot of examples but I assume you get it. If not I can provide plenty.

So how do you define a signature trick?  Something you "invented" or what if someone else thought of it but you did it first? Most likely it is something that someone performed more often than anyone else in a public format.  I have learned tricks from people that did diabolos as a hobby only. When I put those tricks in my routines and performed them often they became signature tricks. Did I invent them? No.

I have also come up with tricks independently and fond out that others stumbled on the same thing who's trick is it then?

Who is the creator? The person who invents it or the person who publicly performs it? 

These arguments always break down in the long view, over time all new tricks become common.  Think of Michael Moschen and his contact juggling. Bobby May did contact juggling as did WC fields, 40 years earlier as well as a lot of other jugglers, but Moschen gets most of the credit for inventing it because of his signature routine, and he complained the loudest that so many people stole his work.

This topic gets covered again and again because people forget they stand on the backs of others.
I say don't guard your tricks to tightly, the foundation you used to create them wasn't built by you.


General / Re: New diaboloing attitude?
« on: August 09, 2007, 10:38:54 PM »
What exactly is stealing a trick? How many of you "stole" the string climb without adding to it?  I bet you didn't invent it. How many of you "stole" the whip catch?  To not do a trick unless you add to it or change it makes no sense. If that is true no one should be doing two or three diabolos at all. There was a time when just doing two was a trick.  A little history from an old diaboloist..........

    The first time I saw two diabolos done was by Jeff Mason in 1988,  He got the IJA Gold medal for using balls and diabolos.  Jeff was from Minnesota and we practiced at the same gym.  He said he saw Guy do it.  I immediately set about learning two. After months of work I was able to do two. I was learning how to correct them and I had learned a few tricks I might say invented, but they were tricks that were already done with one. (under the leg, around the arm, around the world, trapeze and sun)  Should I get credit for these tricks? I say no.  Why?  Because they were obvious. I bet a hundred other people independently came up with the same tricks at the same time.

    Laying claim to inventing a trick is hard to do and usually innacurate.  I did all those tricks publicly at IJA at th '91 diabolo open. A year later I had someone from London show me a 2d trick they had just invented (around the arm). When I told him I already did that one, he said he I stole it from him.

    In 88, I could correct two but I was hoping to get better at it.  I asked Jeff for advice, he was surprised that I could do it at all.  At the time he said both he and Guy just got two going and kept them going until they tilted and fell off. Yet none of you have asked my permission or have given me credit when you correct two diabolos.  Should I get credit for inventing the correction of 2 diabolos in 1988?  Hell no!  And by the way we have no idea if someone from China, India, Siberia, Thailand, or Iowa did it long before Guy, Jeff or I did it. It was an obvious next step. How many other people did or would have gotten there eventually. How many of you figured it out without seeing someone else do it?

I recently saw a Photo from the 1940's of someone from China doing two of the old bamboo diabolos. I don't remember Guy Heathcoat or Jeff Mason giving him credit.  Did we all steal that guy's trick?

    Some of the same conversations have come up with vertex tricks.  At a convention someone told me they invented the vertex magic knot. He might have come up with it independently, but so did a lot of other people.  In 1989 I was teaching children how to do diabolos Two eight year olds thought it was fun to see how far they could get their diabolo to tip sideways before passing it off and trying to catch it. They actually were able to keep it vertical by spinning in a circle. At the time you couldn't do a wrap on a diabolo with out it catching on the small gap or your twisted cotton cord.   Never the less these two children may have been the forefathers of excalibur.  Ironically I told them their time might be better spent working with it horizontally. They didn't listen, either way they don't get credit for excalibur tricks, were they the first to do it decades ago? Probably not but who knows.

Most of the time the person getting credit for a trick is the first person to perform it publicly or to publish it in some form.  That doesn't mean they were the first ones to ever do it. 
Each new trick we do is laying the foundation for the future and is derived from a trick in the past that you did not invent.

How can you really say a trick is yours?

Diaboloist for 25 years and counting

General / Re: String Theory and Time
« on: August 09, 2007, 09:09:53 PM »
Thanks for the input everyone, I really wasn't sure anyone would take me seriously on this, as it is not necessary to know any of this stuff to perform a diabolo trick. Thinking about it has really improved my game.

I liked Martijn's term  "Dwell Time"  I like that better than TOS (time on string)  Thanks Martijn.

I am wondering if anyone else has experimented with "Dwell time" and ESL (effective string length) and if the ideas hold up.

They do for me, but I have a bias because I am working out the theory as I experiment.

Has any one found that this stuff has no impact on how they aim or adjust?


General / Re: String Theory and Time
« on: August 01, 2007, 03:36:05 PM »
I had another thought about this.
I have been thinking of time on the string as landing near the right hand stick (for right handers) and traveling to the left.

What happens if you catch the diabolo in the middle of the string?

I think (to respond to my own question) That you have effectively shortened the string length and will have to throw accordingly. Earlier to direct it left and later to direct it right, but you will have less time to do this.

The further to the left of the string you catch the diabolo the less time you will have to keep the diabolo on the string.(assuming you are making another throw)

Where you catch the diabolo on the string determines your ESL :D  "effective string length", therefore it is a determining factor of time on the string and direction of throw.

Do you agree? I am interested to see if any of you think this is true.
Together we could create a working theory on string length, timing and direction to help beginning and advanced and diaboloists all over the globe, and possibly save the universe!!!!!

..........ok I might be getting a little carried away, but I would still like to here what you think of the premise


-Professor Mick (Mad diabolo scientist)

General / Re: String Theory and Time
« on: August 01, 2007, 03:12:56 PM »
I think you are on topic, It is a great way to explore TOS "time on string"
With 2 high for example,the higher you throw one diabolo the more time you will have for the other diabolo to move toward your left hand stick. This gives you the option of throwing more to your right. If you throw lower you will have less time on the string with the second diabolo and will be more likely to throw toward the left.

I bet someone good at math could write an equation for this.
X=Tos squared times the circumference............

General / String Theory and Time
« on: August 01, 2007, 06:26:22 AM »
    I've been doing diabolo a long time (22 years)  I have recently put some serious thought into some things I have been doing intuitively for years.  It has do do with the string timing and direction.
This won't be new to most of you, and I am sure a lot of you have been doing these things for years without thinking about it. I haven't seen much posted about it so I thought I would share what I learned and see if any of you have discovered the same things.
    When I was working on 4,2 with 3d low I kept throwing the "4" too far to the right.
A friend of mine commented that I was throwing too late. He was correct.
I never really considered time on the string having to do with direction of the diabolo.
If I wanted the diabolo to go to the right I would "aim" right, if I wanted it to go left I would just "aim" left.

    Thinking about what he said, I started to play with two high. I just observed what I was doing. I realized I wasn't really aiming as much as I was changing the time on the string.  If I wanted a diabolo to go far to the left I was instinctively throwing it much earlier than I would if I wanted a diabolo to go far to my right.  It was a surprise to me because I was physically doing one thing while cognitively I thought I was doing something else.

    I never realized I did this.  Try it. (for right handers making a regular catch near the right hand stick. Right hand slightly higher than left) If you catch a diabolo and immediately bounce it off the string it will travel to your left. If you wait as long as possible to throw it as it travels along the string toward your left hand it will fly off to the far right.
   Stated another way, When a falling diabolo hits the string, the downward momentum is shifted to the left. As it travels the half circle created by the string the momentum is shifted to the right  A diabolo thrown from near your right hand stick will go to the left.  A diabolo thrown from near your left hand stick will tend to go to your right.

Is this useful?  It was to me.  For me thinking in terms of "time on string" rather than "aim" dramatically  improved my accuracy with 2 and 3 high and tricks with 3 low.  It has also sped up my progress on learning many new tricks.  After breaking it down I found "aiming" or tilting the string had very little to do with the direction of the arch, it was almost all TOS  (time on string)

This applies to excaliber tricks as well, only sideways.

I would encourage you to experiment with this if you haven't. This may not be a revelation to many of you, it might even be old news. But it was fun for me and has helped me be more accurate.

    I also realized The length of the sting can also make a big difference.  I was practicing three high (I am trying to get 100 throws by best is about 30)  I was throwing to far to the left. (early)   So just for fun I shortened my string by about 6 inches. This meant the diabolo had less string to cover. It got to my left hand quicker than it would have with a longer string. The end result was that I was throwing later and my pattern moved to the right.  If I wanted it to go to the left I had to throw way early.  I put a longer string on using the same timing, and of course the diabolo tended to go to the left.

    I am not advocating changing your string length every time you want to change your throw, but the theory is the length of the string with could correct certain tendencies.

    We all have different string lengths we are comfortable with, this may have something to do with our natural timing.  We tend to use a length that fits with our individual throwing style or innate timing.  Just a theory.

I am curious to see what you think.


Tricks / Vertex Darkside Mini genocide
« on: September 28, 2006, 03:40:22 PM »
Hey Crew!
I came up with a new trick, By new I mean I haven't seen anyone do it yet, Including me. I can't get it consistently, but I wanted to share it with you. I'm sure all you vertex junkies could land it in a heatbeat if you haven't done so already. My camera is in the shop. (Knocked it right off the tripod with a henry's Circus. If I get the film out of it I'll post it.)

Here's the idea:

From a vertex position diabolo near right hand stick, unwrap the diabolo and quickly come around it putting it on the "back of the string or darkside" This has to happen very fast. This sends the diabolo to the left side. Do a stop over on the left side. (Remember your arms are crossed right hand in front of left.) Swing back to the right, release the right hand stick and grab the string with your right hand.  (This is where I get smacked) the string does a small circle around your finger (just like a regular mini genocide) catch the diabolo on string let go of the string, catch stick unwrap...........................................and it's just that easy. I landed it once and couldn't get out of it before dropping.

I am very new to the vertex stuff, ( I can only land a regular vertex genocide once in ten tries)  but I am excited about the trick and I sure a vet could do it.

If anyone else has this on video I would love to see it.

General / Genocide, Suicide, Homicide
« on: May 18, 2006, 04:03:07 AM »
Good points Sean. ( kudos to you for using the word etymology in a sentence on a Diabolo website.) You makes a lot of sense. Maybe I am forcing the issue too much myself, or creating an issue when there is none. My curiosity does get the best of me sometimes. Still I think it is an interesting debate.

Did the media change the skateboarding names for broadcasting or names of tricks in other sports??

Might it eventually change ours the same way?


Sean I can't figure how to get the   ` above the "A" in your name, my apologies :oops:

General / Genocide
« on: May 18, 2006, 02:08:54 AM »
Great thoughts all around!

Matt, Good coments on the -cide suffix, Thanks

I don't think something is inherintly good just because it has been around for ten years. I am still neither for or against the name changes, but to argue against change because of longevity or difficulty seems well.. weak. Check out Gahndi  or Lincon on this one.

Still looking for answers on two questions

Did ESPN ban the names for broadcast?

Do the names hurt or support our art or are they irrelevent.

I talked to a couple of parents at the circus school today. It mattered to them a lot.

Are there other sports that have delt with this? Skate boarding or Bmx for example?


General / Genocide
« on: May 17, 2006, 07:44:57 PM »

Human Genocide is the murder of an entire people, Killing off an entire race or ethnic group.

General / Genocide.............
« on: May 17, 2006, 07:41:38 PM »
One reason I am curious about this topic is because of a personal experience. About ten years ago I invented a series of yoyo tricks.
I competed with them, the main trick was put in a book and a couple of yo yo magizines.   I had to have a name for it and I wanted to call it something clever. I called it Buddah's Revenge.  I thought it was cool cause the trick repeated itself (reincarnated) and I thought it was funny because buddists are pacificts and would never look for revenge. I didn't think much of the name, but the trick and the name caught on.
The trick spawned many children. Buddha's Bounce, Black Buddah, White budda's,  Budda's Fury, ect...

About a year later a Japanese man, aproached me and asked me why I named it Buddah'a revenge. I told him that I thought it was funny. He told me he was a Buddist and he did not think it was funny. Neither did a lot of other Buddists from Japan where yoyos are exremely popular.

I apologized and said I meant no offense. He said "I understand and it's too late to do anything abot it now. Everyone will call it that now, there is no going back and it's a little sad, but" he smiled "Buddists have a sense of humor too."

It really is just a yoyo trick, not the end of the world. It did make me think about how we name our tricks and who we alienate.
I wanted a cool name for my trick, I didn't want to offend a religion or nation. I am glad they are pacifists.

So that is a little backround of why I think this debate is important. When our art grows we all benefit. Should our terms be inclusive or do we say Screw you if you don't have a sense of humor?

By the way I am thinking of calling my new yoyo trick "Shiva's Crucifiction on Haunakah"


Tricks / Thank you for 3d help I fnally got it
« on: May 17, 2006, 07:07:39 PM »
I really really wish I knew.

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