The Stolen Case of No





  2. You cannot say not to spending time with us.
  3. You cannot say not to the suggestions we make.











38 thoughts on “The Stolen Case of No

  1. Sunshine says:

    And what if the narc doesn’t accept a ‘no’ from you? I’ve seen the following happen after a ‘no’:
    – they keep pushing and pushing until they get the answer they want
    – they ask why and use your answer to keep pushing or challenging your no – including being very manipulative, as opposed to just forceful.

    How can we avoid entering this situation, and getting the narcs to accept that ‘no’ means ‘no’!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You cannot. See Escape for how to deal with such a situation (it is in circular conversations).

      1. Sunshine says:

        I’ve searched for the post but can’t find it. Do you instead mean your book titled ‘Escape’?

        I have largely escaped (relationship ended, no contact except through lawyers), I’m referring to legal matters. The primary narc won’t accept ‘no’ for an answer – ever. He just keeps pinging back and back and back. Endless solicitor’s letters. And it was my choice to conduct correspondence via this costly medium – as I was so fed up with him not accepting no or boundaries I’d set over email.

        Do I get my lawyer to go all out aggressive, or get them to go a bit grey rock on the other party. It doesn’t matter what I write to him, how solid my position is, he just ignores what my lawyer says and keeps going with what he wants. Pushing, ever pushing. What can I do?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes the book Escape, Sunshine.

          Are you in litigation and what is it about (do not need precise details – is it children, property, money, a divorce?)

  2. alissa says:

    I say no all the time now, just because I CAN!!!

  3. Mona says:

    Love (5.Febr. at 2.17 AM) look for game theory: Tit for tat.

  4. No? Why not? Lol!!

  5. 1jaded1 says:


  6. indiglowsky says:


  7. sarabella says:

    “You cannot say no, because you do not want to say no”

    (Of course I didn’t want to. I thought you were a good person. I thought you were a friend. I thought you really meant well when you said you never forgot me. But as I got clarity that you were always my enemy, I reluctantly had to say no. Yes, it was in fact hard. But you made one mistake with me. You thought you took away my no and I would go quietly. I did not. But anyway, it’s really your loss. The self-esteem damage was profound and abrupt, unexpected, but I finally healed. I am now stepping all over you, seeing you for the ugly, evil person you are. And I know enough now to know the loss of my fuel, even before I knew I was even providing any (just the mere fact that you once hurt me deliberately ages ago and hung on to it all that time for fuel), is going to sting. Because it shows you in all your pathos. That you could hang on to that for so long, when I erased you once, forgot your existence, and that you are the same ugly person, and will be erased again, shows me that you never really controlled MY “no”, not for long. So I enjoy now, watching from the side lines, as you plow through friend after friend, fuel after fuel. I paid you back in little ways you will never know for sure was me, fucking with your life from far, far away. But you toyed with me again, when I gave in one more time to my deep hurt that I have to say no, my reluctance, but you went too far, that last one. So you are erased at last. And once in a while, I will watch you, see what has become of your pathetic life. Scraping the bottom of morality, trying to feel alive when you are dead inside. Your energy long since left your body, truly, you have no Chi at all, you are really a walking cadaver who can only post pictures of your once golden years. The sad part is that because YOU were unable to say NO, to all your impulses, all your internal corruption, you are left with nothing in life. I just had to be willing to finally see it all and let go my goodness and love. )

    I said no.

    1. ashley says:

      This made smile with exhilaration.
      YAS GIRL!

  8. Mona says:

    The female narc even talked about criminal behavior, for example about lies in front of a judge…..She felt so safe.with me. And she talked and talked and I smiled and smiled….and agreed and agreed…

    1. Mona,
      So you pick pathological people as friends and lovers. Why do you imagine that is?

      1. Brian says:

        It’s possible that she just attracts them because she projects innocence and vulnerability.

        1. Brian,
          Could you expand on why you believe that type draws a Narcissist? Thx.

          1. Brian says:

            HG says he is attracted to the potential supertanker of fuel, so I have to defer to the expert on that one.
            I think innocence and vulnerability are attractive to someone who wants to dominate , because those traits allow them to dominate covertly, lead someone up the garden path etc.

          2. Thx Brian.
            I would things that women with a strong personality are a better target and they aren’t as easily broken as someone who is vulnerable and innocent. Targeting a person who is coming out of a divorce or a bad break up seems better as they are easily distracted by the flamboyance of the narcissist. HG your thoughts please.

      2. Mona says:

        Hallo Anna Belle Black, normally I do not. After the narcissistic relationship I read some contact ads to find female friends to go out and have fun. She was one of them. It was only an unhappy coincidence. But in some way you are right. Come one, come all could be my motto. All the pathological people came to me in the past. From schizophrenic to autistic to drug addicts to borderline and so on. All of them. One time I could help the police to find out the crazy motive of someone who committed a crime. The detective said to me :Respect! How did you know that? It was a person similar to Matthias Rust. They were surprised, because nobody else could explain, why he did that crime. It was very strange,but in his madness logical.
        One young man came to me and told me that he heard ” voices.” I was the first one, whom he told that.
        Why is it like that? I think, I was curios in a positive way, I have had only a few prejudices, I liked people. Normally I like to listen. I do not judge someone for being strange or different. I have had a father, a little bit like Spock of the Enterprise . He was a highly intelligent,a total logical and rational man, very friendly, with strong values. But he could not show feelings or he had none. He was not able to interpret feelings shown to him. I think he suffered from alexithymie. Even when he had a very dangerous life-threatening heart operation he had no fear.(Chance to survive about max 30%) He said: “I am on death row now.” And then he smiled. (He meant the hospital,in which he was). When I was a child I was forced to look for tiny piece of emotion. Anything….that showed some interest of him to me. I could have been the child of a neighbour…. He was as friendly to me as to everyone. No difference. And my mother is a victim narcissist. The perfect match. Maybe that is the reason, why I registrated things, that other people cannot see. It has been some kind of a gift and some kind of a burden. I was blind only to narcissistic behaviour (because of my mother). Now it stopped. I do not want that gift anymore. Now I am a person, who is untouchable and very often cold and disinterested. I closed the gates. Only two persons have admission to come close to me. Often I give people the silent treatment. I adopted that behaviour. It functions so well.

    2. Love says:

      Mona, I also have narc female friends. I suspect they are higher level than any male narc I’ve been with. I’ve known them for years. My close friends. I realized that these women are WICKED. Truly corrupt. Yet they win every time. Court battles, custody, alimony, child support. They are never out of money and enjoy life to the fullest. Promiscuous and morally corrupt. They have had and continue to have great men in their life. Even if none of these relationships last, none of the men are ever released. I’ve stopped my friendships with them countless times. I’ve cut off communication for a year or so. Yet somehow, they always win me back.
      How? Why?
      1 very important element: Charm.
      They are so charismatic. Light up the room when they enter. Their power and seduction is felt by most. Powerful yet vulnerable at the same time. I suspect I am always lured back in because I’m secondary source and experience a very long golden period. (Yes Mr. Tudor, props to you. I’m listening and learning).
      Even though they feel nothing, they are superb at emulating compassion. It is a sight to behold. Like moths to a flame.
      They are the epitome of a femme fatale.

      1. Mona says:

        Hey Love, yes, you are right. It makes fun to be with them. And if you want, stay with them for the golden period. They are a big fun factory. The only thing you must learn is not to trust them or ask for a favour, no, I have to correct that. Never ask them for help when you need it. You will be disappointed again. Let them their illusion that you are easily to exploit. Deal with their great EGO. The irony is that they get, what they themselves provoked. No real friends. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yes, they are the epitome of a femme fatale. Stay away, when they need your help. And they do! An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. That`s all you must keep in mind. Quid pro quo. It is sad that people like them exist.

  9. Mona says:

    Today, I have to write a lot. I had contact to a female narc. I broke the connection too early. because it was so interesting how she dated men. Each week another man. She – of course – had a constant lover at home, waiting for her. She dominated the restaurant, let them pay, asked for presents, sent the presents back to them with the words, that she would like another one and so on….If they did, she met them once more. For each man another telephone number. Silent treatment…., Using them from the first minute, provoked envy and jealousy….. I am so sad that I did not observe her a little bit more… . . I could have learnt a lot more about narcs. She wanted me as a “friend”. To persuade me she even wore the same clothes like me after the second meeting. At the third meeting I discovered the first lies and I let her go…after meeting her about ten times.. I was stupid. I should have learnt more about her from a safe position. She did not know that I knew her. So she talked a lot and let me see a lot…..

  10. Mona says:

    Mathilda, test him, as much as you can. We are worth it. They must show by behaviour, that they deserve us. Words are easily spoken. Test him like he tests us. Say no, no, no….. If he invites you to a restaurant, suggest another one. And persist on your suggestion. Then he is in a unknown environment. He feels insecure, you will notice that. Observe him in that situation and do not think, it is cute….It is only a sign, that something is not alright. Look at his exaggerations. He will show in an insecure environment. There are so many signs….. Make a list of the signs, HG mentioned them in different articles and you are prepared. Look to other sights, look for example to George K. Simon, he knows a lot about manipulation behaviour and he explains it very well. Do not be afraid, dominate your dates with men. If people like HG smell a little bit dominating behavior, they look for another person. Do not forget they look for victims. They are not interested in people with a real self-esteem. They fear it. Their excuse is always they do not like the person. The truth is they fear them. You know, they always win and that is impossible with strong characters.

    1. Matilda says:

      I see where you’re coming from, Mona… wanting to observe them in their natural habitats, wanting to play and beat them at their games… but just reflect for a moment how it makes you feel… you are seething with rage, I can sense… we are not built to gain anything from trying to beat them… having contact with them means poisoning our souls… we can only beat them by NOT playing their games.

      If I want to escape the fate of ending up like a crazy cat woman 🙂 , I will have to change my ways… yet the thought of going through anything similar or worse with another narc keeps me hyper-vigilant… every word is analysed and questioned, every movement, every glance, every smile, every interaction with someone else… always in search of a red flag… if there are none, does it mean he is ‘safe’? Or might he be a very sophisticated model of the narc species? The liquid Terminator comes to mind…

      Yes, being boring helps 😀 … encouraging them to speak does, too… no home improvement projects… no game playing, but lots of mindful observing… and listening to your gut instinct!

      How about telling him: ‘I have a bit of an issue with trusting others. Would you be so kind as to put this electrode head cap on and slip into the finger sensors before we order the first course?’ 😀 Surely, if you asked him nicely, and with a smile, he would not mind being connected to a lie detector! 😀 😀

      1. Mona says:

        Hey Matilda (Feb.,4; 8.13 PM), your last suggestion would not help, because they believe what they say. There will be no suspicious reaction to the lie detector. For a suspicious reaction there must be a normal conscience. They have a perverted conscience. (HG agreed on a former post !) Lies are normal.Therefore no reaction. Nevertheless -great fun!
        We have to be careful and trust someone only after a long, long time. And we must build boundaries around us. That is all we can do. My gut instinct is a little bit damaged because of my mother, I have to use my brain to identify them.

      2. Matilda says:

        “… they believe what they say. There will be no suspicious reaction to the lie detector.”

        Ha! I considered that, Mona! That’s why the brain needed to be monitored, similar to an MRI, in real time. There is a difference in blood flow when someone is lying as they need to retrieve the truth and twist it. It might even work in cases where the liar believes he is being truthful, the subconscious mind would know the difference. In any case, it’s an amusing thought 🙂

  11. Mona says:

    Let him hoover your flat.

  12. Mona says:

    Mathilda, we cannot prevent it, if there is a strong psychopathic trait. They mimic all. All you can do is to cut connection at once, if you recognize a break of a boundary. Make yourself as boring as possible, so that he looses interest. Then you can get away with disappointment and frustration, that you met another one. Nevertheless most of them warn you in the beginning, they tell you, what they are. We just cannot believe it or were educated not to believe such stories.No compassion, no pity. Let them tell a lot about themselves. Just listen and smile. They love to talk about themselves and they talk about their dark side. Tell him how wonderful, special, outstanding he is and tell him then, what a boring person you are. Don`t tell him much about you. Show him, how boring you are. Or another suggestion: Let him work for you. Let him renovate your flat, let him do the dishes, let him hover your flat, let him do all that stuff and he will run away after a short period… If he is not a narcissist, he will ask you, why do you exploit me? A narcissist will never ask that question! He will go away as soon as possible without talking to you. If you get the silent treatment, you know with whom you deal. It is ok then, your flat is (nearly) renovated. If their investment and it is a calculated investment is to much for them, they leave you with a brush in their hand and never come back.

  13. Matilda says:



    It took me quite a while to understand that the seduction, which seems so pleasurable, is actually a form of violence. The violence behind the smile, the engulfment, the rushed commitment… a violation of boundaries, and testament to the fact that he does not respect you at all!

    Once we realise this, and can see through Lessers’ and Mid-Rangers’ machinations, we are still not safe from harm. The irony is that we might end up with a much bigger problem: a Greater, who imitates normal behaviour with such finesse that we do not recognise the deception.

    How do we prevent that from happening?

  14. Mela says:

    No you didn’t! That you stole my “no” – “alternate fact”! (a little political joke there) Thanks for helping me get it back!

  15. Laurie says:

    Excellent article.

    1. Janice says:

      No. No. No. Proud, I do not beg or fuss but I do pay attention to my devaluation. “Give but don’t expect much in return. I will let you know when you are worthy”. This is what I know. How I was raised.
      So the glamourous ties are loosened. Yes, she is charming and well modulated in her behavior. Dependable. Pretty and hard working. Not so easily upset. Oh well, dangle threats of abandonment. She will stay. And one day the ties are so loose and she slips away. It was your choice and I already mourned your passing.

  16. “No is a complete sentence.”

    1. Sunshine says:

      And we have to keep reminding ourselves of that.

  17. Brian says:

    It is true

  18. NumbShell says:


  19. Karin says:

    I’ve finally learned it’s time to say no when I begin to feel tired. When I can feel the energy drain begin.

    It’s all very sad. He wants his fuel. I want to connection. It’s a toxic chemistry. An unstable bond. And each time we cross that certain (invisible) boundary, damage happens.

  20. ashley says:

    The ex would exhaust me…. Literally his favorite turn of phrase immediately following his “No”:
    Shit eating grin etched on his face, he always said,
    “I’m not trying to boss you around, I’m just trying to tell you what to do.”
    Maybe it was witty the first time… oh, but not to him. After 5 years, he’d still deliver that line as if he literally just thought of it for the first time. Mind boggling…

