Race & Accessibility in the Mountain Bike Community

Jun 7, 2020
by Brian Park  

You’re not on Pinkbike for current events, but the violent deaths of George Floyd and so many others have been a catalyst for reflection. This is bigger than mountain biking.

Some have criticized us for not speaking sooner, and that’s fair; silence is an implicit endorsement of the status quo. Each time I’ve tried to write something over the past few days I’ve been frustrated by an inability to articulate a way forward, and uncomfortable with my lack of understanding. The truth is we’re not late because we don’t care; we’re late because we needed time to learn; to listen. And while talk is cheap, the first step is simply to acknowledge an issue. So here goes.

Mountain biking has an accessibility problem. It’s just one symptom of the racial inequality and systemic injustice currently spurring protests around the globe.

The sport's lack of diversity is rarely as simple as overt racism—although the stories I’ve heard in the last few days had plenty of that as well. It’s also unequal access and systemic barriers for people of colour, including economic barriers, geographic barriers, and a dearth of MTB heroes.

Our sport requires access to expensive bikes and trails to ride them, and people of colour have disproportionately low access to both. It’s challenging to address inequality in an industry that’s as privileged as this one. It’s a hard sport to get into for communities that have on average a ~41% lower household income, especially when they're limited geographically from access to trails. I grew up middle class, saving up by mowing lawns and doing chores for my first real mountain bike, but it was generational wealth that allowed me to do that.

You can’t be what you can’t see. I can count the number of black pro riders on one hand. I got into riding because I saw Wade Simmons do impossible stuff on a bike, and I identified with him. Sure, riding like Wade is still impossible for me, but that inspiration led to me having a career in the industry. I could pick up an issue of Bike Mag in 1998 and see myself as a pro freerider, but the same can’t be said for young people of colour.

The mountain bike community’s response to athletes and industry expressing support over the last week has been disheartening. There have been countless comments actively diminishing black athletes’ experiences of racism, knee jerk whataboutism, and false equivalencies about looting and extremists. We know that this community is made up of many amazing people, so there has to be a gap in understanding somewhere. It’s tempting to be cynical of lip service wokeness and hashtag activism, but a large number of our community aren’t ready to acknowledge that there’s a problem at all. And that’s a problem.

Whose responsibility is this?

Why should brands care? What’s wrong with marketing only to the people who are most likely to buy your current products? Isn’t a business there to make money rather than address social ills?

It’s everyone’s responsibility because it’s the right thing to do. Continuing to prop up a system that excludes people is wrong, even if it’s easier. And I know that’s why many people across the industry and community are stepping up.

What can the community do to address the problem?

In talking with several people of colour in the cycling industry, it's clear we don't have all the answers today. And they won’t come from me anyway—a middle class white kid from a small farming town in Canada. But here are some of the suggestions we've gotten over the past few days.

• Listen to people who say they’re hurting, educate ourselves, and reflect on our own biases and behaviours
• Take part in the civic process, vote, and make donations to organizations and efforts to fight racial injustice
• Hold companies to supporting the inclusion and diversity they say they want
• Give the industry some time to figure out what that support looks like—it takes time to make good plans for lasting change
• Be persistent, don’t let us or anyone else off the hook to continue pushing for change

What is Pinkbike going to do?

Pinkbike stands in support of POC communities, and in protest of racial injustice everywhere. We want to see systemic barriers to mountain biking removed, and will support efforts to break them down. We’re open to suggestions on how to move forward, and I hope that people will reach out to me personally with their ideas. Here’s what we’re going to start with.

First, we’re going to keep listening. There aren’t nearly enough diverse voices in the industry, and we’re going to make sure we hear them. We’re reflecting on our own biases doing what we can to educate ourselves.

Second, we’re going to amplify voices from groups who are underrepresented in mountain biking. We have a responsibility to use our platform to tell the stories and share the perspectives that we are missing out on right now.

Third, we’ll put our money where our mouth is; we'll announce a donation and resource initiative in the coming days.

And finally, we’re going to take a hard look at how our community interacts with each other. One thing I’ve heard several times this week is that some of the diverse voices that we want to hear more from are afraid of putting themselves out there because of feedback from the comments.

Our platform is no good to people if they don’t feel safe to get up on it. We clearly haven’t done enough to protect those diverse voices, and that’s got to change.

We'll absolutely stay a place that encourages unvarnished, critical discussion on bikes—where misleading marketing gets called out, where bad bikes don’t get a pass, and where you can make dumb jokes for days. But comments that are so toxic that they stop people from taking part are unacceptable.

We will be developing and rolling out new community guidelines in the coming month, as well as putting resources towards enforcing them.

For practice, here’s the first new guideline. No #alllivesmatter or #bluelivesmatter comments. While they're technically inclusive, they're designed to undermine and delegitimize the movement. It’s saying “the status quo is fine, your suffering doesn’t matter” to people who are hurting. #blacklivesmatter has an inclusive subtext—“Black lives matter too,” not “only Black lives matter.” Saying “all lives matter” is like going to an AIDS walk and shouting "All Diseases Matter!" It’s interpreted as a thinly veiled racist statement. Please don’t do it.

Advocating for social change in a privileged hobby like mountain biking may seem insignificant, but our sport’s lack of accessibility is a reflection of the inequality and injustice faced by millions of people. I'll be honest, we’re unsure of what to say or do. But we're uncomfortable with silence, and I hope you are too. We have some ideas, and we understand the tools at our disposal. Mountain biking is our sport, let’s make it better. We’ve got some work to do.

Black Lives Matter.


  • 1012 122
 Good job PB! Appreciate you using your platform to add the weight of your voice to this issue.
  • 453 229
 Lacks credibility considering the lack of bans on Pinkbike users such as Waki, roadstain, and others who consistently make racially offensive comments and agitate the issue.
  • 120 85
 @DoubleCrownAddict: sucks you're being downvoted when you're right
  • 88 54
 @alexdeich: I think people are downvoting because we addressed how we're going to change that in the article.
  • 197 93
 WAKIdesigns (Feb 21, 2020 at 8:01)
(Below Threshold) show comment
I would love that with Chinese accent... Maxxis taya wong way on the weaw of dat owenge

April 2, 2020 "You only get a few voices of sympathy from SJW lunatic camp. Who are also a-holes!"

WAKIdesigns (May 20, 2020 at 2:19)
(Below Threshold) show comment
@mitochris: because that would go so well with principles of journalism. Like mentioning source of information. Typical stupid liberitarian leftists, social justice warriors approach to "freedom of speech" - paranoia caused by treating yourself as woke enlightened, and seeing general population as bunch of idiots who could get corrupted by a right wing propaganda, and could put you and your convenient set of values in question. Fkng bike site, fkg simple string of information and some fkng idiots needed to politicize it. Get fkd. Get fkd, you are as stupid as those two grannies, this is what you will become. Sour old pricks believing in greater order of the universe, seeing world as place invaded by awful people stopping you from reaching your Elysium. GET FKD.
  • 30 37
flag alexdeich (Jun 5, 2020 at 9:56) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: I appreciate this, but I think that the comment comes from a place of frustration that it's taken so long for you to deal with it. Furthermore, have you actually addressed how you will change it? You've said you will "take a hard look at how our community interacts with each other," and will "be developing and rolling out new community guidelines in the coming month," which is good, but still short of telling us exactly what will happen.
  • 143 28
 @DoubleCrownAddict: Up to now, PB has chosen to use a light hand when it comes to moderation. I am glad to hear that they will be taking a more proactive approach about dealing with posts that verge on hate speech.

Many other online environments bring people together in an echo chamber of similar world views, but the thing PB users have in common is a love of riding bikes. This gives an interesting opportunity for those with differing world views to interact, which can help counter some of the increasing polarization we're seeing. If discussions are respectful, this is a good thing.

But posts that cross the line absolutely need to be dealt with to encourage that respectful dialogue.
  • 84 13
 @DMal: They've had no problem moderating the "ask us anything" articles by deleting comments that were offensive to their sponsors, but have yet to remove hateful racist comments.
  • 35 9
 @alexdeich: Also sucks to have my comment deleted by moderator when it was valid and factual.
  • 18 18
 @chasejj: really? Never? Here's a good recent example:

RoadStain (May 22, 2020 at 6:16)
"Um, the word "helbender" sounds hurtful and may intimidate some people. Mentioning that they are black only makes this fact worse. Not only do they mention the worst place imaginable, they have to bring color in to it.....shameful"

RoadStain (May 22, 2020 at 8:00)
(Below Threshold) show comment
"@thegoodflow: Just being offended for the people who may or may not be reading...."
  • 14 5
 @DoubleCrownAddict: "we will ban people who say racist things" is so easy to say, too
  • 61 206
flag chasejj (Jun 5, 2020 at 10:29) (Below Threshold)
 @thegoodflow: What is racist in either of those statements? The point is you are an idiot and think anything that you don't agree with is racist.

It is hilarious and sad at the same time, that you are so dumb.
  • 99 25
 @chasejj: what's your goal here? Pinkbike makes a pledge to address racism in the comments, and for some reason you feel compelled to defend waki and roadstain, call everyone idiots, and claim that racism doesn't exist? And I'm the one who's dumb?
  • 148 25
 @alexdeich: you're right that words are all too easy. We don't have all the details worked out, but it will end up being new guidelines that include:

• bans for overtly sexist, racist, bigoted, etc. comments.
• escalating suspensions and bans for members whose contributions are toxic and not constructive contributions to the community.
• added resources to enforce the rules, either a full-time new role as community moderator, or diverting some resources from other people's roles
  • 6 0
 @thegoodflow: oye, there is unfortunately some truth to this...
  • 174 30
 @brianpark: Everyone , and I mean everyone, needs to learn the meanings of the following words.
Conscious Bias
Unconscious Bias.

The "Racist" word is being thrown around very loosely when in fact most people are just biased. We are all Biased , consciously or unconsciously, even people of color. It is important we have these discussions, but stop throwing around the word Racist.
  • 56 16
 @thegoodflow: If you look at past Ask Us Anythings, you'll see that brands have had to answer difficult questions. We just delete duplicate questions and comments that try to reply to questions before the brand gets to them since that's confusing when you're trying to follow the thread.

The moderation of an article for a two-hour period is relatively simple. The moderation of every article and comment on the site when dozens of articles are posted every day is more difficult and something that we're working on a solution for.
  • 41 5
 @DoubleCrownAddict: Actually, after a complaint I made on someones racial slur, they were removed by PB Admins moments later.
  • 15 5
 @sarahmoore: I see your point about the manpower it would take to moderate all the comments, vs moderating those particular articles for a brief period. But you're being disingenuous by saying you only cleaned up duplicate questions. You also deleted some of the "difficult questions" that the sponsors didn't want to address. It was obvious at the time. Either way, my point stands about where your priorities have been.
  • 13 6
 @brianpark: thank you for this, kudos.
  • 20 8
 I understand it's difficult to enact structural change, and your willingness to try is commendable
  • 19 6
 I encourage all of you to read this quick article - It clarifies my point below so well.

  • 5 8
 @Rucker10 Huge upvote from me - I misclicked the downvote button so making it right here.
  • 6 5
 @sarahmoore: its a big lift no doubt. Have you considered bringing on volunteer community moderators? Its quite common on other forums and there are always fair-minded, able people willing to pitch in.
  • 57 3
 @DoubleCrownAddict: I hadn't seen that racist Waki post. That is bad. But I don't understand how insulting social justice warriors is racist.
  • 3 6
 Agreed. Thanks for this! It means alot!
  • 189 15
 @DoubleCrownAddict: Like most people who view pinkbike, I rarely comment, or even up- or down-vote a comment, but I read the comments because they add a lot of value to the article. Many comments are banal, a few are offensive, and some are thoughtful and thought-provoking - a bit like people. I recognise the appeal of banning people from commenting if they are judged to consistently make offensive comments, as you suggest, but in my opinion it would be the wrong approach.
If someone is truly determined to post offensive comments then they could easily create a new account and continue with their sociopathic behaviour, but I'm not convinced that pinkbike is an attractive forum for bonafide trolls. Instead I think that most offensive comments either reflect what the people who write them actually think, or they are the result of poor behaviour/mis-judgement on behalf of their author (we're all thoughtless arseholes sometimes). In either case, the best corrective action is to show the author, and the other readers, that their comment is wrong and/or offensive either by replying, or by down-voting; so far, so status-quo. The only enhancement I recommend is to de-anonymise the up- and down-votes.
The comments section on pinkbike is one of the best examples of discourse I've seen on the internet, and to the silent reader it's clear that offensive comments are challenged by the community. It would be a shame to lose what we have in pursuit of something we're unlikely to obtain.
More broadly, I appreciate pinkbike acknowledging and thinking publicly about this issue, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect a single editorial to present a comprehensive plan that addresses the lack of diversity in mountain biking, when it's primarily an expression of the structural racism that has pervaded most western societies for centuries. This is a good start.
  • 99 22
 @brianpark: Never thought I'd see Pinkbike openly discuss racism and ban hurtful words to the black lives matter movement. Thanks for listening and making a change.
  • 11 12
 @sarahmoore: would it be possible to put a filter on comments for things such as racial slurs? that might make it easier
  • 6 2
 @Three6ty: Good post. Thanks for the clarification, I for one am ashamed to admit I was previously unaware of this. Cheers.
  • 35 59
flag Ecar (Jun 5, 2020 at 12:30) (Below Threshold)
 @DoubleCrownAddict: Meant to upvote, accidentally hit downvote.

  • 5 46
flag Matt115lamb (Jun 5, 2020 at 12:32) (Below Threshold)
 Someone call in @roadstain quick , your people need you !
  • 109 33
 @brianpark: here would be a good place to start. This guy contributes nothing of value to the discussions on this site:

RoadStain (2 days ago) (Below Threshold) show comment
@WAKIdesigns: You of course are smart enough to know what it is exactly that most of the black folks rioting are looking (and looting) for right? Simple two-word answer - "Free Stuff". Six and seven generations deep of wanting more "Free Stuff" as part of reparations for something that the US was not a lone actor of, and today one of the few countries without slave labor (plus the fact that most of the people selling slaves were black).

So, here we are generations later, stereotypical people who behave in a stereotypical way bitching that they are stereotyped. Complaining the same complaints, acting the same actions, and doing NOTHING at all but playing a victim card. Not exactly sure why society owes them all a Bently....but, I guess it does....

What is a shame is the many blacks in the US who do acheive, do excel and do try to move above the actions of their brethren who are cheapened by the actions of their demographic at large.
  • 20 9
 @brianpark: Thank you for taking action and doing something good... It should be met with openness and appreciation... silence the haters and their hate... There are more of us lovers and appreciators out here thankful for good people doing good things. Keep up the good work!
  • 13 5
 I apologise for my lazy attack on someone, I will try not to jump into the comments before I’ve properly read the articles in future .
Well done PB !
  • 4 2
 Well said. Thank you!
  • 22 6
 People might say, "What's so special about Pinkbike" I say, This. Thank you, I'll look forward to what's next.
  • 4 2
 @Upduro: One in particular.
  • 15 2
 @WAKIdesigns: I want the old Waki back! The one who made drawing lessons for mountain bikers, and the hilarious “i don’t need therapy” video!
  • 88 135
flag WAKIdesigns (Jun 5, 2020 at 15:05) (Below Threshold)
 Ok, can someone at Pinkbike please pull the plug? I am almost 40 damn it. Gets creepy. I’m like Jennifer Aniston or Mike Levy pretending they are 25

@brianpark @sarahmoore - come on Smile
  • 17 5
 @WAKIdesigns: I'm pretty sure they're in the mood to indulge you so be careful what you wish for.
  • 21 16
 @Upduro: Can you name one time that everyone in a specific country believed in one belief? I can’t, I don’t know about you.

While the U.S. as a whole may seem racist, I think that it is split, and the minority of those who are often stand out because of their beliefs. I can say that while our country might not be diverse in race, or nationality, we are sure diverse in political opinions.

I’m addition, I think both sides of this issue can agree that it is somewhat interesting to watch heated debates over the tiniest things go down on the comment sections. If everyone agreed on things, there would be no point in these comment sections. It is a place to voice your opinion, and get feedback on it. While I do think that some comments cross the line, it isn’t my place to tell someone their political belief is wrong, so a controversial comment can be quite entertaining at times!

Anyways, once you come to the U.S., and visit every city, town, and county here, and listen to what everyone says, then you can make “observations” on this, but until then, they do more harm than good, so just don’t.
  • 13 25
flag JacobyDH (Jun 5, 2020 at 15:08) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: is this the way you want to go down? Come on man! I don’t care wether you’re 12, 25, 40, or 80, being back the old Waki!
  • 5 3
 @Three6ty: or... those last three items on your list are a product of systemic racism?
  • 10 1
 @JacobyDH: I was recently making this point in a thread here--I actually have felt its commendable that PB doesn't over moderate the comments, yet there are certain people who cross the line with frequency and truly should be held accountable under the stated site policies.

One such person who has gone above and beyond in this respect seems to have been met with a significant setback today. Also commendable.
  • 22 22
 @brianpark: I'd like to understand the definition of "Toxic". Banning overt racism should be table stakes, but we should do better about the less overt, but more pervasive forms of racism such as minimizing, whataboutism, hiding behind things like "just sayin' or narrow readings of some statistic.

Also, thank you for these words. I support this direction for pinkbike.
  • 26 18
 @HaggeredShins: I guess I may be new to PB, but somehow when I joined, I ended up rewatching all of Waki’s videos for so long. I instantly thought his kind, respectful, humorous self that he showed in those videos was who he was today. I ended up losing context about 2 weeks ago, and defending him, and boy was I suprised how much hate I got because of that.

@Ecar: Instead of banning, why not ask for the political beliefs to be toned down a bit? I agree, that many have crossed the line recently, and I think many people from the right would agree.

If our defence against hate is to ban people, it does not achieve much. If instead, we ask for them to talk less about politics, and more about their anger at low wheelbases, or their Carbonjack, things would be much better.

I hope some of you can see things the way I do, before it is too late, and Waki is banned.

  • 10 1
I wish that were the case. Some basic questions have been asked of brands and they flat out ignore them or the answers are beyond useless. And that's on things like bike geometry.

People with anything from closed mindedness to outright racism and everything in-between can say what they like here. And if censorship and a time out we're to happen they'd log in under another name / ID.

The problem here, or at least one of them is that this is a forum with light to no moderation. One can't expect to find balance, reason or enlightenment here.

There are a few informed and educated people here with valid opinions and points of view and there are others who, and I'm being kind, have no clue on anything but like to present the matter doesn't exist or insist it's the wider audiences job to validate or provide evidence. If one can't do that it's responded to with insults.

And in the middle, people just want to ride bikes.

It should be open to everyone who wants to ride - it's not, it is unfair and won't change because its roots are hundreds of years deep and billions of people wide. And institutionally enforced.

I live in hope of change (have done for decades) but I don't expect to see it here.
  • 9 3
 @DoubleCrownAddict: And yet Waki would be the first to accuse others of blind racism........I agree, no tolerance for racism.
  • 17 1
 Uhhhh, is @WAKIdesigns actually gone?
  • 11 6
 @TreeBeak: I’m not suggesting any tolerance in any way shape, or form. I just think that instead of fighting over racist comments made by Waki, why not talk about riding, or something that won’t deeply upset others? I’m not suggesting that racism should be ignored, and I believe it is a problem, but if you want to discuss it in an article where it is not relevant (not this one), just take it to the politics forums, or somewhere else. For the few people of color who are in mountain biking, if anything hateful comments will turn them away more than many things on Pinkbike.

@sarahmoore @brianpark : thank you for making this article. It has shown to me that Pinkbike has not given up on fighting racism, and hate. Salute
  • 12 3
 He’s officially gone.
  • 29 12
 @mobiller: Dont be ashamed. Even as a white person, for most of us, this is a first for us. How do we react? What do we say? How do we know if what we say will be kept in context or taken out of context?, How do we know that what we say wont feel like we are patronizing the person we are saying it to ? etc....

We all deal with issues ( grief, tragedy, etc...) different, and to be "racist shamed" Because you are not joining a protest or posting a all Black picture on your social media, is by definition, bullying.
Deal with it how you want to deal with it and not on others terms.
Lastly - We all have a bias or are prejudiced in something. Don't let that define you. Understand it, come to grips with it and make changes if you feel its appropriate.
  • 7 2
 @JacobyDH: he'll be back.
  • 27 20
 @Three6ty: 100% right. Racist is completely watered down at this point and no longer an insult, let alone the real way to differentiate people. Everyone was a racist during the 2016 elections and they are again all of a sudden. We know how this plays out.
  • 4 4
 @AmityTom: how can read all these comments and then come out with that ?
  • 4 10
flag goldencycle (Jun 5, 2020 at 16:22) (Below Threshold)
 @Matt115lamb: He just wants attention. Ignore the toddler.
  • 25 18
 @Upduro: I can agree that many accounts here are racist, but I guess I misinterpreted your comment to be that all Americans are racist, and that those who rant in comment sections about their racist views are just exposing America as a whole. I apologize if I came down on you for my misinterpretations.

I think this situation is confusing for all of us, and I don’t want to come across as ignorant to other beliefs, and absorbed in personal biases. I should probably shut up now though, before I misinterpret someone else. On the other hand, I don’t want to come across as racist, or ignorant. I believe in the BLM movement, and I don’t think there should be tolerance for racism, and I want to make that clear.

I would like to end my comments on this article with one note: we are all mountain bikers. There is no need to fight endlessly about a topic that we for the most part agree on. Why don’t we embrace our differences, and appreciate the sport we take part in. I think PinkBikes address of this issue is overdue, however it is better than never. Racism is a very complicated issue, not just a simple word. Sometimes you must understand what the issue is before combatting it, so I encourage you all to do research. Find a way that you can help out to end the struggle of black Americans, and go and do it. Let us show unity, as together we are much stronger than apart. It seems like for the most part we can all agree that this has to end, so let’s take that, and use it to show that to show the world that we want change. Now. The marches that have occurred across the world have sparked action locally here, and in many other places. Sparks can die out, so it is our job as a community to keep this alive, until we get what we want. In general, I am a big supporter of listing to others opinions before challenging them, however there is no justification of actions that have been taken by certain police, and racist civilians who take their anger out at the innocent.

With that, I sign off for this comment section.

  • 13 2
 @nattysupper: the best way to address an issue is the way PB -and yourself- are highlighting: by acknowledging it first, and then by putting it out, where everyone can see it, and reflect on it. We are really good at pointing the errors on others, but pretty bad at thinking how do we contribute to that error.

My Physics 101 teacher at the Uni used to say the best way to unmask a scammer is putting him in the spotlight and writing down everything he says. I think this pretty much applies to those who make veiled references to racial or social differences.

Good way to cement an educated discussion there dude. Thanks for kick-starting me into thinking mode.
  • 6 4
 @tictock24: well as recently as pre-1968 in America it was legally allowed to discriminate against black people so...
  • 19 15
 PB, staying silent on the topic does not equate to endorsing the status quo or anything else. We continually encounter situations and ideas in life that we do not agree with (or are even vehemently against) that doesn’t necessarily require some sort of dissertation. We do not always speak up about it, in the context of many different reasons. It is good that you did address this but don’t conflate the notion of “not speaking up” and endorsing egregious concepts.
  • 6 5
 @JacobyDH: don't feed the troll man. Just leave him there, under his bridge.
  • 6 3
 @JacobyDH: I’m all for giving people chances.

But I’m my book, three strikes and you’re out.

Personally I don’t let his comments bother me, but understand he only brings negativity to these forums.

I suppose children never learn and the only way to bring them back to reality is a stern consequence.

  • 4 2
 @brianpark: Solid, well done. TSN had to scrap their comments section a number of years ago because things got out of hand. It was a tough call for them because (like PB) it saw super high traffic. I believe the good people of the Bike world will see this a wake up sign and those that need to get tossed will be easy to spot.
  • 25 6
 @rjdelly: Go back and read the 1st Amendment, it has nothing to do with this conversation. Congress was not at all involved in PB's decision.

If you don't like it, go to another website. Then maybe PB will rethink it.
  • 54 2
 @rjdelly: first of all, this is an international forum. Pinkbike is a private entity that is free to censor any comments that they see fit. That aside, in America the 1st is intended to protect you from government cencorship...


But since you're so concerned about blue lives and the 1st amendment, maybe take your head out of your ass and realize that police officers are currently systematically violating 1st amendment rights of citizens throughout the US by assaulting protesters and members of the press.
  • 40 7
First, the Bill of Rights applies to the USA government. Second, Pinkbike is neither the government nor american. Like all private enterprises, they define their user standards.

Ill say again, american education is failing. Maybe go back to your high school goverment text books before commenting. #blacklivesmatter
  • 4 2
 Good job pinkbike, these issues are effecting multitudes of people. The violence hurts everyone. Thankful to be riding and digging but know things will get back to normal for everyone.
  • 61 57
 @DoubleCrownAddict: Yeah, start banning people outright, instead of having a dialogue.
F***ing brilliant. How the hell are you supposed to EVER convince anyone of any other perspective of point of view if you first impulse is to extinguish them?
Seriously, is that all you SJW's can ever do?
Are your arguments and beliefs so weak that they cant stand up to ANY thought that isnt goose stepping to the outrage polices newest offense?
Honestly, Waki says some weird shit sometimes ,but You all know damn well that if you banned him, the collective IQ around here would drop in half.
I dont agreee withhom very much, but again, I dont ever demand that people i disagree with or offend me, disappear
  • 29 7
 @chasejj: @chasejj: I have a screen grab from RoadStain that is as follows -

“And Obama as a Token Ni**er as well. I bet he calls Pelosi “massah”. What a disgrace he is. I do hope that his two pack a day menthols creates a weakness to Corona and dispatches him, painfully. Smile

The guy is clearly racist. To PB credit, and I don't think PB deserves too much credit to this point, the comment seemed to be pulled off the site shortly after posted. That said, PB didn't ban this guy. So what about it?

Also want to see the screen grab cuz you know, you can see it and then say something to the effect of that is kinda racist?
  • 30 13
 @scary1: Racism is hardly the "outrage polices newest offence". The purpose of this forum is not to convince racists of the error of their ways. There's certain people here that make inflammatory and sometimes racist statements and have no interest in having productive dialogue. I have no problem with them being banned without hesitation. They don't need yet another platform to spread their bullshit, and it should be obvious that racist comments alienate POC from our community.

While I don't think Waki is as blatantly racist as some other posters here, I personally think the forum would be better off without him. My problem with him isn't that I disagree with his opinions (there are plenty of people here that I sometimes disagree with), it's that his only purpose seems to be to generate controversy and stir the pot. He (and you apparently) also greatly overestimates his own intelligence and riding abilities, and is generally just a douchebag.
  • 25 18
 @DGWW: What's your definition of a social justice warrior? It's the people out marching in the streets for racial justice.
It's not a directly racist attack but it's really an attack on anything socially progressive, which race relations are directly related to. Race relations, economic inequality, sexual equality, environmental issues. All the things Trump Republicans have declared war on.

Referring to SJWs, Allegra Ringo writes in Vice:
“The problem is, that’s not a real category of people. It’s simply a way to dismiss anyone who brings up social justice — and often those people are feminists. It’s awfully convenient to have a term at the ready to dismiss women who bring up sexism, as in, “You don’t really care. As an SJW, you’re just taking up this cause to make yourself look good!”

I was actually more bothered by Waki's comments against environmentalists than the racial stuff, constantly belittling and making fun of environmentalists like Greta Thunberg.
Within 10-20 years obvious impending environmental issues are going to make race relations seem much less significant as we will all realize we are on the same sinking and dying boat together.

I appreciate Pinkbike addressing this issue, even though we all have our differences we should try to act like a community.
  • 51 78
flag Euskafreez (Jun 5, 2020 at 23:13) (Below Threshold)
 It's a witch hunt now …how pathetic ! Behind their keyboards some SJW are browsing older comments just to find enough material to ostracise ANYONE they don't like or disagree with.
The Cycling industry has nothing to do with this news topic, and yet people are using it as a pretext to ban someone like Waki.
  • 13 7
 @scary1: what are you on man? There's a colossal difference between engaging in reasonable discourse versus spewing verbal diarrhea all over the comments section. People who can't help themselves need to be helped, for the sake of everyone else trying to act even ten seconds more mature than puberty.
  • 13 51
flag scary1 (Jun 5, 2020 at 23:24) (Below Threshold)
 @thegoodflow: wait, riding abilities? I dont think i ever beought that up. This is a social justice site now
Try and stay on topic
  • 20 52
flag scary1 (Jun 5, 2020 at 23:28) (Below Threshold)
 @DoubleCrownAddict: yes, im being dismissive of you. I cant muster the amount of outrage it must take for you to get through a day, just knowing how unfair everything is for everyone else and how much they have to know that you care about every bit of it.
  • 13 14
 @HaggeredShins: don’t worry brother. @scary1 is just a penis, only smaller.
  • 27 22
 @scary1: "Yeah, start banning people outright, instead of having a dialogue...

There is a big difference between having dialogue and being a right wing agitator who personally insults and degrades people who doesn't agree with them.

I also disagree strongly about the collective IQ dropping now. As far as I'm concerned his opinions on mountain bikes are misleading because he simply doesn't ride enough. Always making fun of 50 tooth cassette's like he's some kind of strong man when the reality is he doesn't need it cause he never goes on long rides. He used to insist nobody needed more than a 125 mm dropper, only cause he didn't ride steep trails. Most of his opinions were cynical mish-mash garblings of little intellectual value from what I saw. I hope he is motivated to ride more now and enjoy the real side of the sport.
  • 11 26
flag scary1 (Jun 5, 2020 at 23:33) (Below Threshold)
 @Ecar: makes zero sense
  • 22 33
flag scary1 (Jun 5, 2020 at 23:37) (Below Threshold)
 @DoubleCrownAddict: So, you've deamed him "right wing" now and that does what? Automatically eliminates him from any conversation?
Ive gotten into more arguments about bikes that almost anyone. WHO CARES. i mean really WHO CARES
Do you have to add that to the list of things you gotta be pissed about or the world will stop?
  • 118 10
 @JacobyDH: hey, hi there, POC person here.

Let me start of with a simple little reminder that talking about racism should have a place -> everywhere. Not just in selected small sections on a webpage where everyone loves to talk about bikes, heck, I rather talk about bikes and line choices, body position and the requirements to go faster.

But there lies an issue in this sport that affects me in a way you might never understand, that's why you, and everyone else should hear and listen to what People of color have to say, to report. Let us talk about a topic we never felt comfortable to talk about in the sport.

Because it's not just when we go shopping and get targeted to have stolen something, it's not just when we are in a bus and get racially discriminated, it's all the time where we get to feel our skin not be the right color for others. Even In the sport.

And this is just scraping the surface.

By forcing an issue in to a room that is not as accessible as for example this article, creates an option for people to look away, and that is the issue.

Privileged people have always had the option to look away, and it has for a very very long time be the option to go for.
It's time to change that, make a "sensitive" topic less sensitive, simply by talking about it like asking how you slept.

The mentality to comfort everyone can't be a mentality to go for when its puting a price tag on a life, on equal rights, on my skin.
And the comfort that you're talking about, the "talking about a topic that doesn't deeply upset others?"

It's usually the racist people who get deeply upset, and talking about this issue openly is a way to educate.

And you're right, it is an upsetting topic, but it's a truth you're talking about that is upsetting, it's my truth and the one of thousand of other riders.

This situation we are in should not call out the question of comfort, but for help, support and education.
To break down the wall and push diversity in a gorgeous sport that has many mentally healthy atributes.
  • 38 9
 @Euskafreez: it's not a witch hunt. There are a few outspoken a*sholes, and if you spend any time on these forums you see them spewing their bullshit over and over. PB is pledging to make a positive change, while also saying they've had a difficult time moderating the sheer volume of comments. I have no problem bringing a blatantly racist comment to their attention. People like you like to cry foul whenever a perceived SJW calls someone out on their bullshit, but what you really want is another anonymous safe-space where you can be an a*shole without repercussion. People like you are the biggest snowflakes.
  • 56 3
 "freedom of speech isn't freedom from repercussion". Freedom of speach just means the government isn't allowed to persecute you for being a racist conspiracy theorist. Literally everywhere else you bring that garbage you should expect to be told where to go...
  • 14 2
 @thegoodflow: some of these people can’t be helped.

If you can’t figure out the difference between reasonable discourse/ presenting the other side of an argument/debate and being a d*ck, racist, *sswipe then you are beyond help. No one is saying you are racist because you present the other side, nor would anyone censor you for that, people call you racist and censor you because you’re racist and need censoring.
  • 10 0
 @friendlyfoe: Can't like this enough.
  • 35 52
flag Euskafreez (Jun 6, 2020 at 0:02) (Below Threshold)
 @thegoodflow: So I am the snowflake now lol … reverse burden of proof here ! I am no snowflake, I lived in a communist country in the 80s. You don't even realize where such a witch hunt is leading us to. Instead of labeling someone enemy of the state, they will label them outspoken a*sholes. No need for a trial, no need for proof, just calling them outspoken a*sholes is enough. What's next? The dictatorship of Care Bears?
  • 16 5
 @Euskafreez: what's your actual goal here? Do you actually have a problem with roadstain being banned from a bike site for contributing nothing to the bike discussions while making frequent and blatant racist comments?
  • 16 41
flag scary1 (Jun 6, 2020 at 0:06) (Below Threshold)
 @Euskafreez: They dont care.
Or know any history,at all
All they know is they are right and pure and all others must be silenced, one way or another.
  • 27 6
 @Euskafreez: the ironic thing is that what the US government is currently doing to peaceful protestors is exactly in line with the behaviour of a communist dictatorship. The fact that you're arguing against the people who support those protestors says a lot about what you truly value.
  • 15 38
flag Euskafreez (Jun 6, 2020 at 0:17) (Below Threshold)
 @thegoodflow: you don't get the point don't you ? If you don't like a user on Pinkbike visit his profile and click on Block user. Or look the other way, or report him at the time of the message if it breaks the rules of PB. Don't wait weeks, months or years to do so …
  • 27 1
 @brianpark: just a report/flag button on comments might be a start, alongside the up/down vote.
  • 18 39
flag Euskafreez (Jun 6, 2020 at 0:28) (Below Threshold)
 @friendlyfoe: You don't know what a communist dictatorship is. You did not even have the chance to peacefully protest in a communist dictatorship. Tell what's peaceful about looting and destroying a small business ? Some of your peaceful protesters are not interested or concerned by the subject, they are solely interested in power. How does replacing an oppression with another oppression solve the problem?
  • 19 4
 @Euskafreez: You're right, I don't get your point. Do you not understand the irony of suggesting we "look the other way", given the context of this discussion?
  • 10 37
flag Euskafreez (Jun 6, 2020 at 0:32) (Below Threshold)
  • 37 7
 @Euskafreez: I can only assume that you are misinformed about what's happening in the US right now. Some shitty opportunistic people of all races have taken to rioting and looting. Police have doubled down on their brutal tendencies and are using the rioters to justify being violent toward protesters of all colors, as well as deliberately targeting members of the press on the streets. The video footage that has come out in the last week is harrowing. The oppression of fascist governments that you claim to oppose is actively trying to suppress the peoples ability to speak out against racism and police brutality in America right now.
  • 12 49
flag Euskafreez (Jun 6, 2020 at 0:50) (Below Threshold)
 @thegoodflow: You're delusional mate. One day, you'll get older and wiser, and you'll realize that life is not black and white. The 'black and white' is a figure of speech before you ask …
  • 20 10
 @Euskafreez: ok, thanks for another brilliant contribution.
  • 14 34
flag Euskafreez (Jun 6, 2020 at 0:54) (Below Threshold)
 @thegoodflow: at least my messages are not full of contempt against someone I disagree with.
  • 9 0
 @brianpark: The voting system can be a confusing kind of feedback. Sometimes I see one of my posts being downvoted which makes me wonder what could be wrong, especially if there hasn't been any response. Did someone simply not agree (which is fine) or was someone offended (which I'd be willing to set straight). Not sure how much work it would be to realize, but I think it would be nice to have kind of drop down menu when you click on of these up/down buttons (or at least the down button). Not extensive but just maybe something that allows the visitor to choose between "offensive", "faulty/wrong info", "advertisement" or "looked at me the wrong way". It would help make your voting system more constructive. I'm no big fan of drop down menus either but then again, if it helps make the feedback more constructive then I think it is well worth it.
  • 11 1
 @nattysupper: I am the same and I don't think I have ever added a comment until now.
It is up to the community in PB and as a whole in the real world to say no to racism and hurtful comments. People should be banned and if they crop up again in another form banned again, they will soon get bored and then PB are not the only ones moderating.
  • 20 3
 @nattysupper: I'd agree that the comments on Pinkbike generally reflect the witty, irreverent and predominantly kind and inclusive bunch that frequent the site.
The up/downvoting system has helped in taking the sharper edges off some of the more polarised views that appear, and hopefully this has kept the comments relatively friendly.
But arguments and differences of opinion do bring out tenacity in some commenters, winning the argument takes priority and their behaviour ultimately starts to become a bit dominating and sets the tone of the thread.
I think the overall effect of letting this behaviour proliferate is that people feel less like engaging with the conversation as there's a low-level threat of crossing paths with one of the 'opinionators' who will take the argument to an ugly level.
The quote from Waki that @DoubleCrownAddict posted above was directed at me and a couple of others over very little, it's incoherent, angry and abusive. The subsequent flood of posts from Waki sought to dominate the conversation and curry favour, in effect normalising and validating the offensive initial comments.
I'm not easily offended, my job means I do a lot of work on the internet so I'm not new to this sort of shitty attitude but the encounter definitely left me cautious of crossing paths with people who might flare up like this.
If it feels like it's not worth the bother to a middle aged white man like me, I expect it's a lot worse for someone from a minority.
I dunno what the right approach is though, I agree sanitising the site of people with pointy views would be wrong, people get angry, say things clumsily, often don't mean to offend as much as they do. But others insult, pursue and dominate and PB need to decide whether the voices of a few should set the tone of the comments.
  • 13 5
 @sarahmoore: please make sure the people working on moderation are supported. I’ve heard pretty shitty stuff about the mental impact of online moderation. Can be a nasty world to live in day after day.
  • 18 9
 @kirkhilton: f*ck off, douchenozzle. You recognize that black and Latino people fought/fight and lost/lose limbs and lives too, right? And you do understand that black men, women, and children protesting and demanding their right to live and breathe unmolested is something that you’ve never had to experience in your small, small life. You should stick to silence. No one wants to hear from you, and no one needs to.
  • 5 0
 @Three6ty: thanks, very well written
  • 18 45
flag hyouts (Jun 6, 2020 at 6:46) (Below Threshold)
 @adamszymkowicz: Tony Timpa
Google his name.
Educate yourself, dont be a sheep.
Media push narrative, sheep follow.
I been called frog by non white, is that less racist that monkey?
I been called to go back where im from and im white and Canadian In Canada, is that same valuable racist than other live?
Rwanda genocide in 1995.
Millions of innocent victims. Both were same skin colour but hated the other race, is that racist or its different?
Floyd death is terrible and should never happen, he not dead because he black but because cop is a*shole and other cops (not white) did nothing for help. Tragic and very sad.
I been victim of racist constantly because my language by all kind of skin colours,
I had fight for be were I am now.
Does my life matter or only black live matter.
Before anybody (sjw) slam me,
I believe in a world were we should have same opportunity and we should share everything we have with other who cant achieve what we have done.
Educate yourself. Dont be a sheep.
  • 59 13
 Just wanted to say that I am sorry to see Waki decide to leave.

Yes, there are people who will be glad to see him leave PB. That's their prerogative; I understand. I would too if I had been on the receiving end of some of the less than wisdom-inducing comments Waki is capable of.

However, I will be someone who will miss having him about.

That's because Waki and I have shared PMs over the past decade here where we have shared our frustrations with the state of the world (both physical and online), religion, politics, the PB comments section, family life, emigration and living in a country other than that of your birth and all that goes with it.

We have called each other out over what we saw as times when the other went too far, and jumped to the other's defence when we felt they were being unfairly treated.

And Waki is, in my experience, as is anyone and everyone, much, much more than the sum of the parts that are their comments on PB.

So, bye Waki. This below is the you I enjoyed irregular chats with and will miss

  • 40 3
 @Three6ty: Thanks for posting that link.

A few years before his death, Gregg Allman was asked what he thought about the Confederate flag and he said, “I was taught how to play music by these very, very kind older black men. My best friend in the world is a black man. If people are gonna look at that flag and think of it as representing slavery, then I say burn every one of them.” This statement is remarkable to me because he’s not responding to the question based on what the flag means to him and how he feels when he looks at it. Instead, he realized the flag caused pain to people he cared about. If it causes pain to someone else, then put it away, he said.
  • 5 3
 @brianpark: "added resources to enforce the rules, either a full-time new role as community moderator, or diverting some resources from other people's roles"

I'd suggest the latter as someone with experience in this area. The PB comments certainly aren't 4chan but a full time moderator role has the potential to be very hard on a single individual. The only company I'm aware of who has done this without massive psychological impact on the individual is HackerNews and they have 2 mods for a much more benign community.
  • 13 2
 @Upduro: It's easy to dislike and ignore the former. Waki is worse because when he's right you agree with him, then he leans on that capital to promote his horseshit.
  • 7 17
flag plyawn (Jun 6, 2020 at 8:06) (Below Threshold)
 @thegoodflow: "Pinkbike is a private entity that is free to censor any comments that they see fit."

This shows a misunderstanding of the constitution and its application. You don't get some blanket immunity to publish or reproduce whatever you want. Censorship or the lack of is actually a very delicate act for a social media platform.

You should review the Communications Decency Act, specifically Section 230 that details the obligations and exceptions with regards to editorial responsibilities of social media platforms.
  • 2 2
 @adanielle: Like all private enterprises, they define their user standards.

They can do things like terminate service for violation of T&C but what do think happens if those terms contradict existing laws in one of their jurisdictions?

To grossly misrepresent the Communications Decency Act, PB has an obligation to monitor & police specifc types of content, but as long as they demonstrate an attempt they won't be held liable as the publisher of illegal content they miss.

That's not really the same thing as carte blanche powers to set your own T&C
  • 51 2
 @brianpark: I have been an active cyclist for at least 37 years. I was an accomplished bmx freestyler in the 80's, decent downhiller, XC and slalom in the 90's. A master mechanic, wheel builder, mechanically minded for longer. Only post what I have experienced. I have ridden at least one day a week for the last 37 years. Snow, rain, heat, drought, extreme cold, even with 2 freshly born baby girls at home, I found time to ride. Today, I'm riding with the 6th mtb generation of mtber's. Every 5 years or so, a fresh batch of 5-10 riders show up at the trail, I show them around. Every color, religion and even women. Even my girls, who are 21 and 19 years old now, showed up at the trail with me at some point. I have years of riding, years of knowledge, many people, famous and complete unknowns, I've shared the trail with. I have gained so many skills and held them for years. I've taught people some of my secrets and could probably have skills camps. I think I joined PB 10 years ago, but could be wrong. At first, I kinda read the comments, been around so long, I likely had an experience to share that was similar. And it was nice to see mtb was still a thing! In 2009, I could ride my local trails 3 days a week and only see maybe one other set of tracks that weren't mine. Today, it's a busy place again. My very first comment, I was attacked by Waki. About bar setup. I asked for clarification for the attack, tried to see his point openly. I mean, my brother and other bike shop customers had,"That shouldn't be comfortable" set ups, but it works for them. I always keep an open mind. Over the years, I tried to add my experiences to this website, always hit by Waki at some point. Then a few others creeped up. Some of them are gone now. I'm starting a personal bicycle journey in a few weeks that I always wanted to do. I was inspired by my Dad's passing 18 months ago. What I'm making will be attacked by Waki and others, but I'm just gonna do it. The thing is, at some point, I stopped commenting because it's just too much. It's been too much. I mean, I've dabbled, but I'm still pretty quiet. This should have been years ago. Glad you have plans to change the way things go. Maybe someday my product will be on here and I won't be called an idiot because of what works and is fun to me.
  • 2 1
 @orientdave: did Waki exit PB?
  • 24 12
 @orientdave: I completely agree mate, I really liked Waki, he was a troll and could be offensive - but he was our offensive troll Beer

  • 14 4
 @sewer-rat: You could tell when he was trolling and you could see the fools that fed him, I learnt it was easier to leave him be when he went off on one. He also had a bit of knowledge behind him and he seems to have become an easy target for those who disliked him.
  • 14 10
 @Upduro: so as long as inappropriate comments are entertaining they’re ok? Sorry that don’t wash.
  • 2 10
flag CircusMaximus (Jun 6, 2020 at 8:34) (Below Threshold)
 @rjdelly: get bent. Still not getting it eh???
  • 9 14
flag CircusMaximus (Jun 6, 2020 at 8:41) (Below Threshold)
 @Euskafreez: seriously go away.
  • 5 11
 @Euskafreez: uh what? Maybe you should re-read your drivel.
  • 19 42
flag mattradical (Jun 6, 2020 at 8:51) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: and now welcome to communist RedBike... comply are we will turn you into a ghost.
  • 20 6
 @mattradical: lazy interpretation. That’s not what PB is saying.
  • 12 19
flag Euskafreez (Jun 6, 2020 at 9:19) (Below Threshold)
 @CircusMaximus: I lived in your future and I did not like it. I do remember a father of two from my building, a dissident, being taken away by state police. It was in communist eastern Europe in the 80s. Three words for you : Ethos, Logos, Pathos.
  • 32 11
 @Euskafreez: stop conflating your communist childhood with BLM.
  • 14 28
flag Euskafreez (Jun 6, 2020 at 9:30) (Below Threshold)
 @CircusMaximus: I feel bad for you, have fun with your utopia.
  • 28 5
 @Euskafreez: buddy this is a cycling forum. Just like you're free to spout your babble PB is free to give you the boot at their pleasure. It's not a bloody country, it's a private business offering you a service for FREE so take your dictatorial euphemisms and feel free to show yourself the door if you don't like whats going on.
  • 16 27
flag sewer-rat (Jun 6, 2020 at 10:01) (Below Threshold)
 @fatduke: agreed , more like a witch hunt.
  • 10 4
 @hyouts: so what you’re describing is xenophobia, not racism per se. and there’s a huge difference in being called a frog and called a name rooted in hundreds of years of violent bondage. I’ve been yelled at and spat on for being an American abroad, but that doesn’t mean that I can compare the two experiences, or say that because I’ve been made to feel uncomfortable before that I know what it’s like to experience racism. You’re white by your own admission (As am I), so whether or not you had to “fight” to be where you are now doesn’t mean that you haven’t benefitted from the color of your skin. I guarantee you’ve never been worried about being shot in your own neighborhood by a policeman ostensibly there to serve and protect your rights and interests. Sure, Tony Times was white, but his story is the exception that proves the rule, not some indication of equality under the law. Educate yourself.
  • 11 1
 @Steventux: I don't know what the right approach is either.
I recall reading an exchange between yourself and Waki recently where the [lowers voice] Daily Mail was invoked. Waki made some comments that I wholeheartedly disagreed with, and I thought you did an excellent job of rebutting his nonsense. I imagine that was quite an exhausting exchange for you, whereas Waki seems to be a very unusual person who is comfortable using pinkbike comments to explore all facets of his own personality and never gets tired... I'm still disappointed that he seems to have been banned, (but I suspect it may be of benefit for his metal health).
Participating honestly in an online forum is to put yourself in a vulnerable position - that's probably why I rarely do it. It's so hard to predict how your words will be interpreted. For example, if you and I had been talking in the pub and you'd said "[the Daily Mail is] only considered a newspaper by frothing racists..." I'd have pulled you up for over-stating your case (even though I agree with the sentiment), and we'd have moved on. On the forum your statement is there forever for anyone who stumbles on it to read and consider at their leisure.
If you look back at that comment thread you'll see that your comments received an overwhelmingly positive response and Waki's are all below the threshold. Now imagine that you're a 15 year old kid who's really into bikes and is just beginning to look up and consider the world and is testing out a few ideas and opinions. You might skim the headlines as you deliver the newspapers, but you aren't reading the editorials. Chances are you deliver a lot more Daily Mails than Guardians. A pinkbike article about trail sabotage experienced by someone similar to you might be interesting, maybe you read it. Maybe you read the comments under it. Maybe this is the first time you ever hear of Oswald Mosley...
I guess what I'm saying here is - well done, you put yourself out there and got some important thoughts written down. You came across as genuine and passionate, and you were supported by the community. But if Waki and others hadn't provoked you the conversation would never have happened.
  • 20 32
flag me2menow (Jun 6, 2020 at 10:54) (Below Threshold)
 @rocky-mtn-gman: HE'S GONE!! WAKI IS REALLY GONE!! REJOICE!!! Fab Fab Salute Batman Beer

I wonder what the poor sob is going to do with all his free time now
  • 15 1
 That's pretty amazing; that was Waki's last post, daring mods to remove him.
  • 13 13
 @WAKIdesigns: I think they may be searching for a lamb my friend....
  • 29 0
 It's mostly about sheer dickery in the comments. You can disagree without being disagreeable, and differ without being mean-spirited...though it seems like that is a skill that is less and less understood these days...
  • 8 14
flag jjhobbs (Jun 6, 2020 at 12:29) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: and so it came to pass, lamb slaughtered.. go home ,feel better, change shit...
  • 10 7
 @DoubleCrownAddict:word to the not so wise,probably best not to use vice as a reference point ,sorry fella ,you have lost all credibility.
  • 6 10
flag Berickson (Jun 6, 2020 at 13:44) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: you basically are making a "all journalists matter" statement on your own article condemning that same rhetoric. Simply writing an article about the issue with a vague line that says we will change (in some way) doesn't invalidate someone pointing out you still have repeat commenters (listing specific users) on your site that use hate speech. Just like your opening in the article, taking no action is expressing complacency. Practice what you preach and don't make invalidating comments on your own article about invalidating victims of racism. You are very ignorant.
  • 11 1
 @me2menow: He will probably just reregister under a new user name but it will be easy to spot him as nobody really has that brand of being such an absolutely relentless sad sack. At least for a while the comment sections will be half as long without him.
  • 8 17
flag rjdelly (Jun 6, 2020 at 14:26) (Below Threshold)
 @plyawn: PinkBike removed my comments regarding free speech.
  • 16 0

#1. Creating archetypes in your mind base on past experiences is human beings grow, learn and adapt. Your biases are, to some extent, what allow you to survive.

#2. Group behavior is predictable. We can estimate remarkably accurately how many Canadians will have a heart attack in 2020. Or how many will steal a bicycle.

#3. Making individual assumptions based on #1 and #2 can be incredibly hurtful to the individual. And will be dead wrong so frequently that we should teach ourselves to avoid doing it. It will take practice. No human is immune to this. Not one.

We cannot make #1 and #2 go away no matter how much utopian wishful thinking we employ. Conscious awareness of #3 should help make us better people, citizens and neighbors.

Finally, with the entry price for a durable mountain bike now at $4,000+, it appears the ship has sailed on it ever being an inclusive sport. It's a WAG on my part, but I suspect it's only the top 15% who can afford that kind of money for a hobby. And a much smaller percentage globally.
  • 10 4
 @friendlyfoe: That's a gross overstatement on your part. I'm in no way supporting Euskafreez, but you are misguided to compare communist tyranny (compete oppression of dissent and murderous political silencing) with American law enforcement's current efforts to maintain some semblance of order and minimize violence. You do a disservice to the cause by playing the Hitler/Stalin card.
  • 11 5
 @thegoodflow: the real problem with roadstain is his opinions are shared by many americans.

How do we get people like him to think differently? How do we have less people like him?
  • 14 10
 @DRomy: American law enforcement including the military is oppressing peaceful protests with violent force. There are now multiple incidents of law enforcement kettling and then assaulting otherwise peaceful protests. You drastically understate what's happening by saying they are trying to "maintain some semblance of order and minimize violence".

Luckily the conditions aren't right for the government to achieve public acceptance of complete oppression of dissent, but what they've been doing recently is in violation of the first amendment and if they were to continue to get away with it you'd be crazy to think they won't take things even farther.
  • 41 23
 @DoubleCrownAddict: (and his upvoters): if you saw Waki’s history of comments as racist/anti-environmentalist/anti-whatever-you-feel-concerned-about propaganda, then I think you completely missed the point of what he was trying to do here.
Waki was just reverse mirroring what people were saying. The deeper you went in the position you were defending, the deeper he went in the opposite position, just to show you how absurd it was to have clear-cut and definitive opinions on something (except on tire choice and bmx race crosstraining benefit), moreover considering we’re just a bunch of bipeds trying to make something of our time on a rock endlessly falling into the infinite space. It was not a problem that some people did not get it and it was even a good thing as it put some salt on some article comment sections (come on, don’t tell me you’ve never been excited -for the best or for the worst- when the time to click on « show comment » on Waki’s posts was coming), so this misunderstanding was not an issue until it led to the online death of one of the last wisemen on here. I am sure he will be deeply missed in the post-pandemic learning time to come, and we’ll be the only responsible.
Love you Waki, feel so sad today, it escalated way quicker than you’ve ever been able to do.
  • 5 1
 @reverend27: Education but not because racism has anything to do with intelligence. Education gets people out of the little circle they grew up in and forces them to interact with the rest of the world. One of the well known consequences of group think is that without outside influence groups end up moving toward more extreme positions than any member of the group would have come to on their own. The other thing education teaches you is to be critical of the information you're given and to consider other points of view. Not saying it would end racism but it would certainly move things in a more positive direction. It's also good for GDP so there's that.
  • 3 1
 @brianpark: all the article says is that Pinkbike will be rolling out new community guidelines in the coming months. That's hardly a call to action. @doublecrownaddict is right for says something about those users who consistently post offensive material and seemly never get punished for their words. So I guess we'll wait and see what the coming months have in store. Also you could ban those users in the meantime, considering there is ample evidence of their wrongdoings.
  • 3 0
 @sewer-rat: I have a feeling he's still around, just a different username perhaps.
  • 65 2
 @oldschool43: I’m sorry you don’t post due to fear of getting beat up online by keyboard warriors. I also don’t ever post, but I’m just afraid I’ll insult someone and I truly don’t care enough. I agree with PB stopping racist comments and the like. However, everyone commenting are trying to stop and ban people who have hurt their feelings or don’t agree with them... politically or otherwise. I just don’t think that’s ok. I served in the military for 20 years and I am a POC(didn’t know I had a sweet acronym.). When people asked me about kaepernick kneeing, I said “I fight so he’s allowed to do that, so I’m glad he’s doing it for a cause.” What I don’t like, is people being shut down for having different views. Just because you don’t agree with BLM doesn’t mean you are a racist, you probably just don’t get it. Does that mean I should try to shit you up and shove you in a corner? No. The only thing that is guaranteed to do is create more racist.
Stereotyping and discrimination is bad no matter what. Even when you are stereotyping and discriminating against those who disagree with you. Most of you screaming for bans are hypocrites. You spew hate as you preach love. I am a POC and this is what alienates me, not from MTB, but from you commenters. Thanks PB for the well written piece, but please shut down hate from all sides. Give the people who have made mistakes in the past to stop. Stop conflating different politics with being racist.
  • 11 2
 @doublej-cville: This is very well written, you rock.
  • 8 1

Absolutely Sir. I could not agree more.

Brian Park and the team have one hell of a job trying to moderate the community here simply because there is a large amount of conflation of different politics and opinion as discriminatory per se.

As you say, yes, there is discrimination and stereotyping here that it would be nice to be free from, I just hope that there is room for opinion from all sides, just as there is no room for hate from all sides.

Thanks for adding your voice to the mix here; I for one am glad to have had the opportunity to hear it.
  • 17 8
 @Loutrix: He might have done that some but he was much more consistently belittling any social justice or environmental cause much more than he was supporting it, and often in a very rude manner. The way he would go out of his way to demean people was a-hole behavior and as others have mentioned he seemed to try to use his status to manipulate people's opinions. And then when somebody would finally effectively call him out he would create distractions rather than admit he was wrong. A bunch of exhausting bullshit to spend your time reading, quite frankly. I remember reading a post years ago where he suggested to somebody that they should commit suicide if they wanted to help the environmental cause. That alone deserves a lifetime ban.

His pathetic outgoing cheap shot against Levy is classic Waki and is all you need to analyze. Instead of seeing what is happening in the world and using the opportunity to be apologetic he stubbornly became more combative. I wish the guy the best and hopefully he rides more and maybe does a little reflecting.
  • 4 0
 @friendlyfoe: the problem is the misinformation tells them not to believe the truth.
You cannot educate those who turn away from the facts.

Its frustrating and debilitating.
  • 1 8
flag dieuci (Jun 6, 2020 at 17:37) (Below Threshold)
 I have to say just writing an article just further marginalizes minorities, perhaps a more direct action would be more appropriate. I would suggest donating a percentage of Pinkbikes profits to BLM Smile
  • 1 0
 @reverend27: oh it's definitely about better education from grade school right through secondary and having more go on to post secondary. There's no educating anyone who has picked a side.
  • 12 1
 @alexdeich: I’d prefer a slower, more thoughtful approach to new comments section guidelines. All too often we (all of us) do something stupid when we’re trying to do something g smart- too fast.

Thanks PB for your thoughtful comments and approach. This problem is 100s of years old; a day or 2 or week or 2 to consider the entirety of the future is time we’ll spent.
  • 2 0
 @DoubleCrownAddict: based on this you are correct.
  • 6 3
 @Euskafreez: 100% correct
  • 11 9
 @WAKIdesigns: @WAKIdesigns: Your posts are insane but entertaining. I also think your trolling is transparent shitposting which sometimes adds life to discussions (at least when you arent being super predjudiced). I would be interested to know, do you actually hold some of the racist views you espouse, because it feels a lot more like hyperbole than actual racist rhetoric to me. Reading how you write a lot of this stuff it seems like youre trying to draw other people out (which you do consistently). Anyhow, if this is the end of your tenure on PB, farewell, thanks for a lot of laughs, and more than a few red faced rages.
  • 25 33
flag Dangerous-Dan (Jun 6, 2020 at 19:53) (Below Threshold)
clearly no one should ever be excluded from participation in a sport because of any factor that is irrelevant. We have a few women who are part of the group ride community here in Fargo who join in on some of the more aggressive rides. Everyone is happy to have them, or anyone else along.

One of the local rides was started by an absolutely delightful guy who is of afro-Caribbean ancestry. He started it because he is moderately sabbath observant Seventh Day Adventist so he doesn't ride on the Saturday rides. Made it convenient for me, too.

But maybe some people are down voting you because they know that the "Black Lives Matter" organization is based on pure BULLSHIT.

Before you down vote me too much please read:

Have you ever heard of Warren S. Lindvold? Of course you haven't. He was a 72 year old white guy who died from a cervical spine fracture caused by rough handling by law enforcement officers which did not take into account a preexisting medical condition. He was arrested for DUI, so I am glad to have him off the road and in jail. He did not resist arrest, but his medical condition made him fragile.

George Floyd was being arrested for using counterfeit currency. That is a Federal Felony in the US which makes him eligible for up to 20 years in prison.

I spent a number of years in a volunteer fire department. I was aware of one incident involving an officer striking a handcuffed seated person who was pointing out that the officer was accompanied by his mistress. The officer was out of that department pretty quick.

I have also used force to restrain combative people under the influence of meth-amphetamine and Opioids , which the preliminary autopsy indicate Mr. Floyd was. We used a restraint which tied ankles to wrists, and sometimes the weight of a fire fighter to the body of a combative person.

So what will Brian Park say if the final autopsy indicated that Mr. Floyd died of coronary failure due to amphetamine intoxication? "Sorry"? The last time I was in Canada I told my wife I thought that word now was Canadian speak for "get the f*ck out of my way!"

Let me also point out that there is another factor in my distaste for the BLM crowd. They are part of the openly anti-Semitic wing of black american political thought. Think there is no such thing? Sharpton ("diamond merchants"), Jessie Jackson (Hyme town), etc.

We were in Memphis Tennessee not long ago and went to visit the "National Museum of Civil Rights" at the Loraine motel. I wonder where they found the pictures of the Selma march without Abraham Joshua Heschel in the front row? Photo shop maybe. Heschel and King were close confidants. There was no mention of the Jewish presence in the front lines of the civil rights movement in the US.

So, Brian... if you didn't read the study I linked BEFORE you wrote your bit of "noatalgia de la boue", maybe you should do so now. And in the future you should investigate before you open your mouth. "Everybody knows" is short for "it is the trendy thing to believe and I am too stupid and lazy to see if there is any research on the subject to back up my position."
  • 20 4
 @Dangerous-Dan: how hard is it to understand that documented cases of police brutality is not the same as the visible and obvious disparity between stories from white people pertaining to how they get treated by cops compared to stories from black people.

Here is a great recent example. There is nothing in my life experience that I could relate as being even remotely similar to these stories.
  • 9 10
most of the comments that I see here on PB that I believe are expressing prejudice against people due to their ethnic heritage are anti-Chinese. I have worked with many Chinese engineers. Most were good people, just like every one else.

I worked for a guy from China for several years and he had a hard time with Jewish culture, but two of his top performing engineers were Jews. He once told me that he didn't understand us. His exact words were "you and xxx! You are so suborn!" But we worked together for years.

Please note that he despised the rulers of the mainland ("CommieBastards") and was very conflicted about buying stuff from the mainland. He and I and a colleague from Hong Cong had many discussions about the difficulty of determining if something was made with slave labor or not, and if trade with China was a net benefit to the Chinese people or if it just put money in the pockets of the Commie Bastards.
  • 10 3
 @brianpark: If it helps, the Chicago Statement from the University of Chicago as it relates to how to navigate 'freedom of expression' whilst at the same time recognising that the freedom to debate and discuss the merits of competing ideas does not, of course, mean that individuals may say whatever they wish, wherever they wish, is a good starting point for the difficult discussions you and the team will have as you try to draw up community guidelines. Good luck.

  • 11 5
 @firesurf101: So, if a black person is a great person, loves themself, works hard, has plenty of determination in life, gets a great job, gets married, but is still racially profiled, you think that's OK? Because you're failing to recognize that OTHER people can impact your life. MLK was killed by a white supremacist, despite being all of the things you said. Saying "That's life" is a sickening trivialization of the horrific things people do to each other. If someone hunted down and killed a family member of yours because of the color of your skin, would you say, "That's life"? I'm guessing you wouldn't, unless you really are just completely devoid of humanity.
  • 17 27
flag DDoc (Jun 6, 2020 at 21:28) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: I have been a member longer than most and i have never read anything like what you just descibed that wasnt said in jest. lets not make a solution for a problem that doesnt exist.

There is no race and accessibility problem in high end sports. You either have/make/save the money or you don't. Just because i'm "rich" does not mean i have to pay a "poor" guy to slay whistler. This is a communist philosphy that ignores karma, reincarnation and personal responibility in general.

i think all lives matter dont get me wrong but lets not use this incident to violate basic free speech or limit a few raunchy waki jokes. lets keep it real, we can police ourselves as well, if there is a commenter who is getting out of line, let the other commenters have at it. Makes it more fun anyway. dont forget this is MTBing not Badmitton.
  • 15 9
what you have posted is ANECDOTE. The plural of anecdote is NOT data.

Fryer provided data. His conclusions were that police are more likely to use physical restraint on black people being arrested than white, but that white people are slightly more likely to have deadly force used against them. Let me post a bit of the summary:


-End quote-

I have had cops point their service weapon at me on two occasions. I have had a toe to toe with a cop at the scene of a car wreck because he was asking for protected medical information and "get a warrant" didn't seem to be the answer he wanted. I had friends beaten by cops who entered their house while they were sleeping on a pretext that was thrown out in court. So I know that cops do step over the line.

But that doesn't mean that is the reality. I am visibly Jewish. Hat, beard, attitude. I am also large, muscular, and can come off as being the guy in charge who doesn't take shit from anyone. I was all of these at the at the time of the three incidents I spoke of. Cops really don't like "contempt of cop." Not even from a firefighter medical crew chief in uniform.

Unless you can give me good peer reviewed research like the study I posted, all the anecdote in the world will not change my mind.

By the way, there is a terminal in the MSP airport named for the openly jew hating bigot Charles Lindberg. St. Barry O. had Al Sharpton as a private guest at the White House at least seven times. Do you want to argue that Rev. Al is not an antisemitic bigot? Really? The group with the highest per capita hate crime attack rate is Jews. That is an aggregate statistic that has been true for a long time.
  • 6 8
 @firesurf101: what a time to be alive. Apparently of all the creatures on this earth that have come and gone, all the civilizations that have thrived and fallen, we are now living in the pinnacle of all of creation, where God smiles down upon white Americans and rejoices that they can say whatever they damn well please on the internet.
  • 21 2
Thanks for the link. I read the paper by Fryer, and let me too post a few bits of the report that fits an alternative narrative:


"Interestingly, as the intensity of force increases (e.g. handcuffing civilians without arrest, drawing or pointing a weapon, or using pepper spray or a baton), the probability that any civilian is subjected to such treatment is small, but the racial difference remains surprisingly constant. For instance, 0.26 percent of interactions between police and civilians involve an officer drawing a weapon; 0.02 percent involve using a baton. These are rare events. Yet, the results indicate that they are significantly more rare for whites than blacks. With all controls, blacks are 21 percent more likely than whites to be involved in an interaction with police in which at least a weapon is drawn and the difference is statistically significant"

Quote ends:

Additionally, the author themselves adds that there are a number of caveats that raise questions about the integrity of the data, not least of which is that, and I quote

"Accounting for contextual variables recorded by police officers who may have an incentive to distort the truth is problematic".

I should say so. If you really want to remove any inherent potential biases contained within data sets, at the very least, the sources of any data should not come from any organization that stands to incur either benefit or detriment from any conclusions generated.

I humbly suggest it is not possible to use the Fryer paper to dismiss out of hand the combined weight of the experiences (anecdotal or not) of generations of POC.

I am sure we can agree that blanket acceptance is no better not worse than blanket dismissal, especially where data sets are known to be potentially problematic.
  • 17 0
 @thegoodflow: @roadstain is suspended. About time, I reported him for racism back in April, but nothing happened. Good riddance.
  • 11 14
 @friendlyfoe: “Oppressing peaceful protests”...mind citing some actual acts. Enforcing a government-mandated curfew (enacted by both Democrat and Republican governments) doesn’t count as oppressing peaceful protests. Additionally, we’ve seen peaceful protests turn riotous in a matter of moments, and law enforcement is in the position where they need to act before things get out of control, not after it’s too late. That’s an unenviable position to be in, but those are the impossibly difficult, damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t decisions they (the officers in charge and the elected officials) have to make and the officers on the street have to enforce. Since you weren’t on the ground determining when the powder keg was about to blow, I’m not sure you can honestly say things were purely peaceful. You can choose to interpret it as violent oppression, but that seems like a dramatic, self-important take. Creating a cartoonish villain of “the government” or “the police” is simplistic — trying to create some phantom force waged against you so people can feel righteous in their cause and justified in their hatred. Partisans on both ends of the spectrum use this simplistic thinking to fuel their movements and give their agendas the appearance of greater weight.
End of the day, there is a real issue that needs to be addressed, but overstatements and dramatic, one-sided interpretations of current events don’t help move anything forward.
  • 18 2
 @Dangerous-Dan: I guess it's a good thing for everyone else then that the legal system doesn't agree with you then. Anecdotal witness testimony that can be corroborated by witnesses often is used as evidence where scientific evidence is not available. When a large portion of a demographic is coming forward with countless individual stories of abuse of police power the normal human reaction is to go you know what there might be a real problem here, not to ask them for their peer reviewed study. May I point out also how insane it is to decide something couldn't possibly be true because it hasn't been studied. That's not how reality works.

@DRomy: you really make this too easy. That took about two seconds and I know I've seen many other in the news in the last week.

Of course I didn't bother to include a link to the president pepper spraying protesters for a photo op. And it really isn't about Democrat or Republican, either party can be at fault. Look at how quickly you turn this into an us Vs you. It's not a phantom force and mandatory curfews is actually a great example of one of the many tools a government can use to silence its people. You enjoy keeping your head in the sand though. I don't care if I change your mind, just letting you know that the majority of everyone else thinks there's some really screwed up things happening right now.
  • 27 3
 @DDoc: "There is no race and accessibility problem in high end sports."
c'mon bro. read some american history. read some sociological nonfiction on why we are the way we are. the nonexistent problem you speak of exists because of centuries of one group of people having an advantageous position in american society. generational money, jobs, not being pulled over, and in general our "leg up" comes with that. mountain bikes come with all that. the only reason people don't see it that way is because we have blind spots that come with being born white. no problem with that. the problem is with not listening and changing. it is the time to listen. learn. change.
  • 4 13
flag DRomy (Jun 6, 2020 at 23:35) (Below Threshold)
 @friendlyfoe: First, as I mentioned, enforcing curfews isn’t really on its face violent oppression, as you claim. Kettling also isn’t violent oppression. So you missed the mark with your rebuttal. Second, “countless individual stories” is the kind of grand overstatement that relies on feeling over fact. The stories can, in fact, be counted and compared to the number of stories where things have gone correctly and smoothly. If all you’re looking for are the examples of abuse and violence (of course it happens, my head is not In the sand), then it will seem like the problem is much greater that it is. Conversely, if one only looks at the good work law enforcement does without acknowledging the instances of abuse, then those abuses of power are allowed to fester and grow. I’m doubtful the “majority of everyone” (another overstatement) is as worried as you, nor should they be. I can understand why you would feel that way, because that’s all the media (such as the oh-so objective NYT, which you cited for both your points) chooses to focus on. I choose to look at the data (rather than discount it, as you did, when it didn’t support your opinion) and build an understanding rather than have other people feed me hysterical, sensational garbage.
  • 13 0
 @DRomy: the police have been using excessive force on citizens in the streets, many of which are examples of blatant assault. There have also multiple instances of them indiscriminately and violently attacking the press who were filming, including one incident in which an officer was filmed shooting a news anchor in the face with a rubber bullet, which has left her blind in one eye. Law enforcement in the US is seriously broken. The amount of training that they receive compared to the level of responsibility they hold is insane. And they tend to be combattive rather than focusing on de-escelating conflicts.

If you follow this link, there's a compilation of videos that illustrate that the police brutality has become far too commonplace:

  • 16 2
 @DRomy: You have a special gift for drawing false equivalencies. The reason there is cause to believe there is a problem is because of both the nature and quantity of stories from people of color, compared to similar demographics of white people and a more or less complete lack of comparable incidents.

I'm not really sure how to explain to you that when a majority of the negative things law enforcement does disproportionately affects one segment of the population, that all the good work in the world doesn't change the need to address that problem.

And I didn't in any way dismiss your data. I am sure it is 100% accurate within the context of the study with which it was gathered. I merely pointed out how incorrect it is to dismiss the large amount of corroborated testimony that exists outside of that study as being invalid.

You clearly have a side in this and are unwilling to consider that there might be a real problem out there that needs addressing. How about this, imagine living in some far off distant place where on your drive to work every day you were genuinely concerned about being targeted by law enforcement. That in being targeted you felt there was a high likelihood of being treated as uncooperative no matter what you tried to do, resulting in a lethal weapon being drawn on you. In this situation you're not some big tough guy as you claim to be (dont care, I'm sure you are), but you're a 17 year old girl, or a 50 year old science professor, or etc. That's what people of color all over the US are saying their experience with law enforcement is. So maybe try to have just a hint of empathy for those people and whatever the cause of that problem is.
  • 14 6
 It's a bad mounths for white racist pride.
  • 4 8
flag ridesmoothbro (Jun 7, 2020 at 3:25) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: Why does there even need to be a comment section? Seems like asking for trouble all the way around. I see it against race and religion all the time on here.
  • 4 2
 @ridesmoothbro: because sometimes you get useful info from it, other times not so much. Occasionally athletes and brands post on here too.
  • 6 7
 @friendlyfoe: you make some great posts, but suggest you change your tone slightly. Very anti-American... I can assure you that in many a small town and big city in our fine country there are people from various minority groups who feel the same as their American counterparts.

Maybe less violent, but the bias and discrimination is equally present here. In some cases it’s worse because oodles of people think they don’t discriminate but are actually quite racist in quiet ways. And then there’s our track record on indigenous rights... you, know glass houses and stones.

Doesn’t mean we shut up, but maybe a less holier than thou tone and stop painting “Americans” or “the USA” with such broad strokes and stereotyping an entire population in the process.
  • 12 14
 @ATV25: I'm afraid it's too late, people are no longer rational and don't read enough books anymore. One of my posts, where I was quoting Shakespeare, received 28 down-votes. It was nothing but a quote from Shakespeare, a quote used in A Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. Feed the mob with what the mob wants to hear …
The new 'on-line' political commissars are referring to Vice and The New York Times like it's the gospel truth. I'm not accusing those two of being apologetic. But before referring to the NYT, they should know that someone as disgusting as Walter Duranty wrote for them for years. He even received the Pulitzer prize for his lies.
  • 7 0
 @Dangerous-Dan: Not attacking you but this is the correct quote;
“I said ‘The plural of anecdote is data’ some time in the 1969-70 academic year while teaching a graduate seminar at Stanford. The occasion was a student’s dismissal of a simple factual statement–by another student or me–as a mere anecdote. The quotation was my rejoinder. Since then I have missed few opportunities to quote myself. The only appearance in print that I can remember is Nelson Polsby’s accurate quotation and attribution in an article in PS: Political Science and Politics in 1993; I believe it was in the first issue of the year.”

I also e-mailed Polsby, who didn’t know of any early printed occurrences.

What is interesting about this saying is that it seems to have morphed into its opposite – “Data is not the plural of anecdote” – in some people’s minds. Mark Mandel used it in this opposite sense in a private e-mail to me, for example.

Fred Shapiro
  • 3 1
  • 2 0
 @JacobyDH: He'll make a different account.
  • 3 3
 @Loutrix: exactly, well said.
It's irony in the extreme, but mostly funny, sometimes to close to the bone, but hell, you can tell him!
Engagement is key, wether that be with wiity people, monsters, or MTB riders
  • 14 1
 @pourquois-pas: It's not "Anti-American" to point out the problems within a country, as a foreigner or an American. I'd argue that it's Anti-American for Americans to pretend those problems don't exist.
  • 5 17
flag adamszymkowicz (Jun 7, 2020 at 9:10) (Below Threshold)
 @Loutrix: no, Waki was a racist a*shole who got exactly what he deserved, and probably should have gotten a long time ago.
  • 7 21
flag adamszymkowicz (Jun 7, 2020 at 9:12) (Below Threshold)
 @Dangerous-Dan: Go away. Your opinions are stupid.
  • 5 8
 @friendlyfoe: Probably no more need to go back and forth. I would like to say I mentioned multiple times that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. My point from the start was that you were overstating your point of view, which undermines the cause your trying to support. A cause I too believe needs addressing, but isn’t well served when people make hyperbolic claims and try to vilify one side rather than acknowledging the challenges faced by all sides.
  • 11 4
 @thegoodflow: My point wasn’t that police brutality doesn’t happen, my point was that, if a person only follows one side of things (such as a reddit focusing exclusively on police brutality), then that person will interpret events in a way that’s overly weighted to one side of an issue. As I have mentioned, there is obviously a significant and complex issue that needs to be addressed. However, narrowly focusing on one aspect of the issue then shouting the whole system is broken isn’t not a constructive way forward. We’ll just keep thrashing like a metronome from one extreme to the other without finding the middle ground.
  • 13 6
 @dieuci: we will announce donations to a variety of organizations and fundraisers this coming week.
  • 17 8
 @DRomy: Some things don't require a middle ground. Ya know, like racism, police brutality, sexism, ect.
  • 14 4
 @ridesmoothbro: we need a comments section because we're a community.
  • 12 2
 @clink83: that's not at all what he's saying. He has been correctly pointing out that there is an availability bias propping up a perception that police sit around eating donuts waiting to beat up black kids, when the reality is officers and deputies individually go on thousands of calls every year and in a profession with close to a million sworn agents, an infinitesimal few result in tragedy, yet most of which hit the media in a big way. This is not at all a proxy excuse for those tragedies or lesser lawful but awful events, but rather to point out there is a less convenient reality than many want to lean on who are calling systemic racism, which is a horrifying, polarizing trivialization of a real problem.

Nothing here is simple and for so many people to think they've unpacked all the details and distilled an answer so easily is sabotaging an otherwise good and necessary message and the productivity about finding the right way forward.
  • 14 9
 @clink83: Are you deliberately trying to miss my point? This is what concerns me. People are jumping to extremes without considering the whole picture, and then accusing anyone who looks at the whole picture as not having empathy or tacitly supporting racism and police brutality. This dangerously simplistic thinking.
  • 15 3
 @Dangerous-Dan: Stats can easily be manipulated to make whatever point you want, ask anyone who works in the field. So take your "research" with a grain of salt.

Regardless of what Floyd was accused of doing, the trial was never meant to be held by the police. Do you check every bill you get ahold of? Do you think someone should be dispatched to solve that problem with deadly force? Do you think police dpts should be spending our state/local tax dollars buying secondhand military equipment that we have already paid for with federal tax? Do you think that the profitable private prison system should be pumped up with our tax money?

Its all a massive industry that is geared toward making a select few extremely rich. Black people are easy prey, they dont have generations of wealth to back them up. Poor people of every background are targeted, but there is just more poverty in black families/communities bc of how terrible slavery and segreation is. The lack of $$ leads to their problems being ignored, on every level, which only continues the cycle.

The comments of Sharpton and Jackson do not represent the views of all black people. They shouldnt be used to discredit a movement geared towards dismantling a extremely corrupt and ineffective system that is destroying families and communities everywhere.
  • 5 4
 @DRomy: and my point was that you're trivializing and justifying what the police are doing by implying that they are only enforcing curfews. Yes, reddit has it's own political biases and more than it's fair share of bullshit, but I only linked to it because it was a good compilation of links to videos of what's been happening in the last week. People can watch the videos to help form their own opinions if they so choose. I'm not narrowly focusing on any particular side of things. If you have any good reasoning for why police in the US only need six months of training, then I'm all ears. What other profession requires so little schooling for a position of such great responsibility?
  • 5 7
Only if you are ignorant of how peer reviewed research works.-someone who worked in the research field.
  • 6 2
 @DMal: You speak the truth, however, o can't help but disagree with the push for PB to become the moderators of speech. My experience with this community is that when someone makes an off color/offensive/stupid comment, they are resoundingly denounced by the community itself. I think that leaving the comments section as self policing is the best way to go, because once you begin the difficult to enforce fairly policy of censorship, you will end up with the most bland, unreadable comment section. It will become so unreadable that it will lose its appeal. It will become so obvious that people are self censoring for fear of offending someone that its raw passion will vanish. I don't see an over abundance of racism on this site, and where it is discovered, the large majority of users shut it down. That's how life is supposed to work. We are not a bunch of babies who need our parents to shelter us from bad words. We are adults with the ability to see stupid stuff for the stupid stuff it is, and then the person who said the stupid stuff will be able to see that the majority of his peers see his stuff is stupid, and maybe that will lead to the stupid stuff poster to change. And that's what we want: the stupid people to change.
  • 6 3
 @clink83: Social science has far too many factors and variables involved to make accurate statements. You can cherry pick your numbers and present them in a way that suits whatever narrative you want. This happens less in more exact scientific situations, but is relatively simple to pull off when it comes to social science
  • 12 15
 @orientdave: waki didnt decide to leave he was deleted. There was nothing good about anything he did, he simply argued with people for no reason but to piss them off. If you think there was any entertainment value or good intentions you are out to lunch a bit. He was a very sad little person and this was way overdue.
  • 7 2
 @thegoodflow: To your question about a job with little training and significant power, the job of politician comes to mind. Big Grin
What you call trivializing, I call an attempt to provide context and perspective in the hope of fuller understanding so we can make real progress. The rising tide of viewing “the police” as a villain will not produce the change needed or help society at large. That’s why I pushing back against some of the more un-nuanced, blanket comments being made.
  • 5 8
 @clayAr501: Thats not true at all. Social science uses the same stats as "hard science". There is more to science than a single paper, and levels of hierarchy when it comes to statistical evidence. Also, as in all of science, the strength of science comes in the body of work, not an individual paper.
I have two bachelors in science, one in Bio/Ecology, and one Nursing. I worked in federal research, so I'm not one to be impressed with your pseudoscience nonsense. Structural racism and police violence is a fact in the United States.
  • 14 5
 @thegoodflow: he is entitled to his opinion and free speech imo. Not necessarily on this site as pb can do whatever they want. But in the USA he can say what he wants. I believe censorship is more dangerous than some misguided views. Most of the offensive posts highlighted here by you guys aren't that bad...imo. The worst I saw so far was Waki repeatedly saying, "get fked." That was a little hateful imo. By some of your standards Dave Chapelle is terrible racist whose content should be scrubbed from existence.
  • 8 4
 @clink83: You can't even access the first article you linked as its behind a paywall. The second is the same story. The Lancet is notorious for bias, lack of peer review, politicization of medical topics, as well as being anti-Semitic. That's where I stopped. It seems to me you're deliberately skirting my point while trying to masquerade as an academic by plastering links to articles you've never read.

Since you seem to want to look at numbers, let's do that with rather simple point I brought up. Let's say for the sake of estimation somewhere around half of our sworn LE community individually attend to 2000 calls per year, a realistic number (~7 calls a day, less than 300 working days). That estimation totals around 800,000,000 calls nationwide, yearly. If we're saying that nearly 300 (black) lives are tragically lost at the hands of LE each year, regardless of whether justifiable, that's 0.0000375% of calls resulting in tragedy. This obviously isn't scientific, but its an approximation of what's actually happening in the less convenient real world.

I get that you support fixing these 300 issues and then some. I am also behind that, more than you are, but don't be fooled about how the same forces that make people averse to flying after an aviation disaster also compound the perceptions around police activity in America following events like Floyd.
  • 6 9
 @HaggeredShins: So a link behind a paywall and one journal that you dont like means the large body of science is wrong? Uh, no.

The amount of peer reviewed science on the subject is overwhelming.
  • 7 7
 @clink83: Instead of bringing something to the table to discuss you evaded a logical point easily supported by reasonable estimation with URLs leading to largely unrelated, inaccessible content. You're pushing back on Dangerous Dan's citation with the blanket grade-school refutation that statistics can be manipulated and then go on to cite a source of well established bias. When you're this lazy expect to be challenged.
  • 7 7
 @HaggeredShins: Those are peer reviewed articles from the JAMA, NIH, and other prestigious scientific journals. If you dont want to take the time to read credible science, then this former federal scientist turned health care professional is just going to call you ignorant and uninformed.
  • 7 4
 @clink83: As academic as you claim to be, you should be ashamed at the prospect of merely trying to napalm a specific, supported conclusion with the work of others. You're doing nothing more than throwing other people's shit at a wall to see what sticks. I supported my conclusion--if you want to have a discussion, try building an argument yourself, with your own words, with specific citations if you feel you need them, that's actually on point. Otherwise take your alleged expertise and ad hom and shove it since I don't have the time or crayons to explain this for you any better.
  • 10 8
 @clink83: Congrats on the degrees and your work for Big Bro, im sure mommy is very proud. An increasing number of peer reviewed studies in recent years for many fields have been retracted due to bias. It is up to every individual to scour through them and form an opinion of factual vs biased, considering the data used. Not take the peer review as a stamp of fact. In a society that wants to be spoon fed info that supports their views, there are now many official looking organizations that publish "studies" that back up the narratives of either side, further strengthening the bias and divisions in our culture. Im not discrediting all research, just that studies( even PR ones) can be biased. Especially in the social realm where bias is hard to escape.
  • 23 11
 @HaggeredShins: I dont need to make an argument. You have black people all over the united states protesting because they are tired of racism and police brutality. You have the scientific community saying racism and police brutality is endemic and is a problem. You have the medical community saying racism and police violence is a problem. Unless you a right wing troll, its a forgone conclusion.


Yall can just f*ck off with your "baised statistics" and "both sides of the argument" whataboutism. This isnt an issue with both sides of an argument. The fact that bad science gets retracted by journals is proof that peer reviewed science is credible, fyi.
  • 10 9
 @clink83: This is the last thing I'm going to say to you.

The irony of this is that we both believe there is a problem. Literally no one you're arguing with is claiming there isn't an exigent, serious issue at hand. Go back and read above. There are a number of us who very simply recognize this isn't a trivial discussion, which we haven't as a unified voice unpacked and figured out in its entirety. Some of us too feel there's a need to challenge sensationalism about the subject on tap.

Again, I posed a very basic argument. All you gave me is a slew of hyperlinks that I'm supposed to follow, parse through and then glean some tangentially relevant information from? So in your illustrious academic career did you hand in work products filled with references, devoid of your own thoughts?

The fact that you feel the need to persistently hide behind your degrees and alleged experience to then look down from some fantasy pedestal of moral and academic superiority tells me you're a bullshitter. Do you seriously believe no one else here has more impressive accolades than you? People with an attitude like yours are always going to unwittingly represent the step backwards for every two steps forward in the fight for socioeconomic equality.
  • 8 6




Forgive me for having little patience for people who like to claim that things that have been consistently found to be a problem are not a problem. Yall sound like the people trying to argue that scientists are wrong about global warming. Police brutality and systemic racism is a problem that everyone who has any skin in the game has come out and says is a real problem. I've given you ample "proof" of that. Just like climate change, its a fact, not an opinion.
  • 14 4
 @clink83: yeah, you made the mistake of letting ignorant people know they're ignorant. That's an unforgivable since (ed. sin) IME. It's hilarious watching the discussion pivot from "You don't have any proof" to "you think you're so smart for providing proof" to "no way am I reading all that proof you posted, nerd!"
  • 11 4
Good morning.
Thanks for your opinions on Waki,

People's experiences of him (including ours) over the past 10 years here are different, which is a point I addressed in my post (and I quote).... " there are people who will be glad to see him leave PB. That's their prerogative; I understand. I would too if I had been on the receiving end of some of the less than wisdom-inducing comments Waki is capable of."

I agree that it may look to people that he argued with people for no reason, however, my considered opinion given all the interactions I ever had with Waki are different.I politely suggest that if you were in my position, having had the interactions I have had with Waki, that you would be less dismissive.

It is my considered opinion that comments such as yours on social media which deal in absolutes..... for example, "There was nothing good about anything he did." .....are symptomatic of the reason why Brian Park and the team have to exercise increasing levels of control over the community here.

I thought he had asked to leave...(see his post in this thread).
If you have information we are not privy to that he was forced to leave, so be it.
Do you have access to such information?

Have a good day Sir.
  • 5 1
 @Three6ty: Thanks for posting and for bringing this type of diaogue to PB. However, many would disagree with this author's definition of racism and I encourage you to listen more to the current conversations about systemic and structural racism. The author limits racism to individual, intentional acts when, the most powerful and enduring forms of are systemic and structural, For example, the fact that so many black and latinx attend underperforming schools in the US isn't the product of any single person's acts or decisions, but of a racist system (which needs to be intentionally challenged and reformed.)
  • 4 9
flag Cro-Mag (Jun 7, 2020 at 20:23) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: sounds like the minds are about to be washed with the gin and juice of the day........hopefully you guys at least get some cool badges or a sash or something to show dominance........come on now!

  • 5 8
 @DoubleCrownAddict: that waki guy comments on everything. Would suck to have a life so boring you have comment on everything. You can’t change stupid. Just remember at the end Of the day he has to live with himself and I am sure that’s shitty enough.
  • 22 4
 Banning people because they don't exactly share the same views and to the same degree, is wrong. People fight and die for the right to be able to ask questions and hold different perspectives. The goal should be to provide information, experiences, points of view and educate everyone more to have a deeper and fuller understanding on all topics.
  • 12 6
 @radek: yes, of course banning people that share slightly different views is wrong, and I don't think I've seen anyone advocating for that. I actually appreciate that pinkbike is not heavy handed with moderating the comments. But banning users from an online forum for trolling and making repeated hateful racist comments isn't wrong, in my opinion. It's the responsible thing to do.
  • 2 3
 @radek: can we still warn grannies when we come to town?

  • 11 6
 @thegoodflow: I see a lot of folks assume someone is trolling, when in fact those people are asking legitimate questions and or giving their opinions based on their background and life. Remember this is an international site and there are non POC that have vastly different life backgrounds and experience than those from North America or Western Europe. This is an opportunity to lay out each others points of view that all can learn and grow.
  • 11 8
 @radek: oh give a break, if you dont think waki was a troll you're just gullible. No one has the time or energy to 'educate' that clown. And he literally asked to have his profile removed, so what is the issue? Is his dribble really the the impression you want people to get when visiting your sight? Such a poor reflection on the community
  • 26 7
 @me2menow: How about some tolerance and stop with the cancel culture. Call me gullible, but I started this site to unite all bikers and to have difference and diversity in all topics and questions. This applies to all opinions even ones different than mine.
To quote Feynman
  • 9 2
 @radek: waki cancel cultured himself lol
  • 12 6
 @karpiel002: Right after a mob of fellow bikers showed up with pitch forks at his door looking for a witch. Or maybe just trolls with multiple accounts. Wink
  • 5 2
 @radek: I think with the self moding on here ie + or - , the we have been getting more and more extreme comments that is a reflection on the world we live in . Waki is a strange one , most of us have will have liked and disliked him , he has contradicted himself many times so I couldn’t say if he’s racist or not ( I’m leaning on not ) !
I’m not usually in favour of censoring but when you read some comments and think kids will be reading this , it aint good ! I think a warning could be giving before a ban if you don’t comply with the already set forum rules !
  • 8 3
 @radek: I don't know what a follow biker is. I mostly agree with your point about being open minded to dissenting opinions but I think you're taking it to an extreme. I don't think comments such as "And Obama as a Token Ni**er as well. I bet he calls Pelosi “massah”. What a disgrace he is. I do hope that his two pack a day menthols creates a weakness to Corona and dispatches him, painfully. [smiley face emoticon]" is in any way acceptable nor should that kind of hate be tolerated by our community. You really think a statement like that is a reasonable dissenting opinion intended to "provide information, experiences, points of view and educate everyone more to have a deeper and fuller understanding on all topics"? And to ban a user for making such statements is practicing intolerance and engaging in cancel culture? I'm calling bullshit. I think you're just trying to absolve yourself of any responsibility in the matter.
  • 9 2
 @thegoodflow: Comments like that are far across the line. Those comments are from some other user that was removed.
  • 17 8
 @brianpark: I respect you guys at pinkbike a lot. I really do.
But banning Waki...it's just a bit wierd. The guy is clearly doing al this trolling for a laught.
99.9% of the people here don't even know him and yet talk about him and stik al this labels of racism.and what not on him.
Sorry Brian...but I'm desapointed.
This is like Jordan Peterson always says, some people are blinded by their own ideals and begin to ask for censureship just like facists do. And waki doesn't even have ideals, he's just having a laught...

As for other downright racists on thos site, I agree you ban them...but waki ain't one of them.
I hope he's able to get back.
  • 13 7
 @PaulinhoCascavel: I'll be the first to admit that I don't like Waki at all. I also don't think he should be lumped in with the other people that have been making racist comments. But I would like to see him gone. I respect his right to express his own opinions, but here's how I look at it... it'd be like if I went on a group ride. There's this one guy that generally acts like an arrogant douchebag the whole time. He seems kind of miserable and likes to play the devil's advocate in any conversation. He lacks self awareness, tries to butt in and dominate any conversation, and makes statements that make the minorities in the group uncomfortable. When people challenge his positions he gets aggressive and resorts to name calling and insults. A couple of the guys think he's funny and egg him on. I can get behind some of his ideas, and I appreciate that he's intelligent and likes to think critically, but he just makes the whole ride a lot less fun for most of the group. He shouldn't be surprised when he's asked to leave or isn't invited next time. He isn't being oppressed by fascists, he's just not welcome anymore because he makes what should be a good time less fun for most of the group. Waki is that guy.
  • 17 9
 @thegoodflow: So instead of ignoring ( it's really easy to not read posts ) or tolerating the things you don't like, you want to make sure that no one in the group that may have a different opinion, can even have to opportunity to decide for themselves if they want to read or ignore what someone says.

It might make you feel better, and it might be easier, but it does not make it right. We're going for right.
  • 9 10
 @radek: Yes, I could just ignore it, but he clogs up every comment section with his bullshit. You're trying to distill this down into a matter of right and wrong, as if deleting a troll account that admittedly just tries to piss people off will be the tipping point that will devolve us into a state of tyranny and oppression.

The majority of his posts are heavily downvoted. He taunted you guys, probably thinking that you'd never actually delete him, which I thought was the case as well. My opinion has long been that you tolerate his bullshit because he's good at trolling people, engages people in pointless arguments, and generates clicks which is profitable for you. One of your mods finally deleted him, and now you're setting the stage to invite him back based on the premise of inclusiveness and doing the right thing. My guess is that the mod that deleted him is paid a salary, while you, being the founder of pinkbike stand to lose profit from your advertisers if waki's not around to stir the pot and generate extra clicks for every article. I may be off base with that, and I'm open to being corrected.
  • 13 7
 @thegoodflow: I think that in this website there are many diferent rides to choose from.

Waki is a genious at trolling, hands down the best in this website, matbe the best in the whole universe. If you never take him seriously, like me, you'll see that in fact he's stuff is just hilarious. You can see that even waki isn't serious about himself, he just says stuff to promp a reaction.

I bet he is reading al this shit show while rolling on the floor laughing.
Some people here, inclusing you, are just so focused on shuting people down that it kinda sounds facist, sorry about that...it's how I see it.

The thing is, nowadays, everybody gets offended by something...while I really thing Waki doesn't get offended by anything.

Some people here are like those kids that get bullied and think the solution is to go buy an automatic weapon and shoot at everybody at school...this might be a really silly comparition, sorry about that, it's the best I could come up with...but then again, I ain't no Waki.

Hope he comes back, really do, he's funny as hell.
  • 10 9
 @PaulinhoCascavel: His trolling is just boring though. It's the same schtick over and over. And I doubt he's laughing, he's probably bored to tears now that his whole world has come crashing down. The dude lives on this website. It's pathetic. And if you think he's never offended then you've obviously missed out on some of his satisfying meltdowns where other people have gotten the best of him and made him look like a fool.
  • 12 7
 @thegoodflow: still...your attitude is a bit facist, and a whole bunch childish.

You sound like a guy who finnaly took he's revenge...lol seriously, read your own stuff. It's like: he offended meeee! Please pinkbike kick him out!

I bet, If Brian Park never whrote that article and just banned all people that are racist in this website, than waki would still be around.
  • 11 6

"He offended meeee! Please pinkbike kick him out!" I didn't ask anybody to kick him out. Pinkbike didn't kick him out because i went crying to them. He's ridden the line for a long time. He taunted them to kick him out and they finally did.

If you think that I'm thin skinned and childish because I've been offended, I can live with that. If they kiss his ass and invite him back, I can live with that too. But I'm not alone in saying good riddance to that dweeb and I hope he's gone for good.
  • 16 6

I consider Waki to be someone I could talk to on this website and have a full, frank, honest and open discussion with without it descending into name calling nor echo-chambered entrenched positions more than nearly anyone else here.

Just because some people / you couldn't, or didn't appreciate his way of dealing with the polemic and dogma that all too often inhabits the comments section doesn't mean a) that Waki was incapable of having a positive contribution nor b) make your view of the world universally correct.

It was boring 'to you', sure.
Learn to change channels.
If things annoy you, try M.Scott Peck's book "The road less travelled" and his section on how to deal with perceived limits on personal freedoms.... it's useful in such time in my experience.

@radek has tried to give you that message here numerous times
  • 7 11
flag thegoodflow (Jun 8, 2020 at 2:36) (Below Threshold)
 @orientdave: well, I hope you can maintain your friendship in the future as pen-pals. Perhaps you can console him via skype.
  • 9 8
 @thegoodflow: No thanks to people like yourself, I may have to.

The man is highly unlikely to need consoling Sir; you don't know him as well as you think.
  • 10 8
 @orientdave: You're right, I don't know him. I'm sure that behind the keyboard there is a really decent person, just as most people are decent, or at least try to be. Sometimes being behind the screen brings out the worst in us, and I'm as guilty as anyone at times. But waki was a troll, and his presence here was obnoxious. He seemed to delight in being mean spirited, and he did so prolifically and therefor created quite the reputation for himself. If he's gone for good, that's on him, I'll take no credit. But I have a feeling that radek will be inviting him back with open arms, and he'll waltz back in with a smug grin and double down on his whole schtick.
  • 3 2
 @sarahmoore: Pleeeeeeeeaaaaaase add a block user button! If we can moderate for ourselves, that would be a huge improvement.
  • 6 0
 @FatSanch: there is one, go to desktop version of site, onto the profile of the user and it’s under their “follow” tab Salute
  • 7 4

I'm not naming names but I'm astounded you are defending everything we are trying to get away from. Certain individuals were deliberately controversial, argumentative, dismissive of others opinions, reactive and when someone replied with calmness and reason it often got personal. Calling someone a R.E.T.A.R.D is never acceptable.

Perhaps at times we should all consider:


None of us have all the answers to this massively complex problem the world has at the moment, but perhaps we could all start with some tolerance, kindness, reflection, introspection, humility, respect for others and good humour.
  • 9 4
 @thegoodflow: I'm replying to your post, but this is really directed at anyone taking ownership of the sport. It seems that when you say "our community," you really mean your community. It is because it sounds like you want to be surrounded by people who share your ideas and values, like friends. That is very exclusive. This is the kind of thing that is far more likely to keep out POC than a racist. I can ignore a racist, I can't ignore a vibe(if that makes sense). That is ok if that is what PB is going for. Personally, I think anyone should be able to play bikes and I see PB as a place for all mountain bikers, whether they are my friends or not. I would even go so far as to say, I don't care if they are racist or not. If anyone here is racist, chat me up and lets talk about it. Maybe I can win you over. If we let the racist stay, maybe they make friends with a POC and it changes them for the better. If they make a racist comment, it will be downvoted and hidden and you don't have to read it. once again, trying to silence them is just reinforcing their beliefs. rambling now. sorry, i've posted more in the last couple days than the last few years. All of this is just a bummer. Remember, treat others how you want to be treated....NOT how you think they will treat you.
  • 5 4
 @doublej-cville: I think you make a fair point but i'm not sure that I entirely agree. For one, I wasn't trying to take ownership of the sport, but I've spent my whole life stoked on bikes and I feel entitled to share my opinion as one member of the cycling community and this forum. No I don't think I meant "my community" when I said "our community". I said what i meant. Maybe I'm naive but that sounds pretty inclusive to me. What terminology would you prefer that I use?

The whole premise of this conversation was that the comments here can be hostile and may alienate minority groups from mountain biking. You really think that someone using the term "our community" while arguing against blatant racists being given a free pass to say what they want in the name of free speech, is going to turn away a person of color more than when they come here and read those racist comments? Seems like a bit of a stretch, but I couldn't really say because i'm not in that position.

You're essentially suggesting that we should condone racism in this comments section because maybe the racist will make friends with a POC and have their icy heart melted? In theory, I get where you're coming from, but in practice I just don't think that's very likely. I also don't think that any of us, and particularly any minorities, should have to turn the other cheek, just look away, just ignore it, etc., because some white dude from Florida wants to exercise his God given right to speak his mind and just might come around one day, just maybe.
  • 9 3
 @thegoodflow: It sounds to me like you may be building a single case for two separate people, maybe more. I also took very significant offense to RoadStain, who you've quoted multiple times. He is not Waki. I didn't agree with a lot of what Waki said, at least the parts I could follow, but I'm not entirely sure he was overtly racist, that was never clear to me. I believe he was more likely expressing a substantially different worldview than the one you're acquainted with and perhaps the one you're most readily able to accept.

Its a bit challenged to call this "our community" with the subtext that in order to achieve the core suggestion of this article we should clean that very community of any viewpoint that might offend. My question would be offend who? You? Why are your perceptions superior, more moral? Assuming we're not talking outright hate, its healthy to be exposed to opinions and views that are not ours and that we may not agree with. I've said it in other threads here, we need to individually be better filters, individually be less knee-jerk about opinions we're unfamiliar with, and be compelled to engage people whom with we disagree and not bar them from the conversation.

Being international and drawing from so many different walks of life, PB is one of the best examples of discourse I've ever run across (and at times the worst) since it isn't merely an over moderated echo chamber. Hopefully it will stay that way. Radek's take and approach to this is inspiring and very appreciated.
  • 8 3
 @HaggeredShins: I'm not building a case against anyone. Roadstain built a case for himself. I didn't lead any crusade against waki. I agree that I don't think he was overtly racist, more racially insensitive. But my problem with him wasn't that I disagreed with his opinions, although I often did, it was that his goal seemed to just troll people in a mean spirited way. If you want to take the stance that he's free to say what he wants and I should just have a thicker skin, I won't argue with that, but it seems his supporters now want him to have his cake and eat it too. If you act like an a*shole, you're not going to make a lot of friends, and then when people are sick of your shit and speak out about it, and you essentially cowardly rage quit by daring the mods to delete you, well what did you expect? Good riddance.

I'm genuinely trying to engage in dialogue with an open mind. I feel like I'm being painted with this broad stroke like I'm trying to suppress any dissenting opinion that doesn't fit my narrow worldview. I don't know what the answers are. Obviously it isn't to squash any dissenting opinions and I haven't suggested anything close to that.
  • 9 3
 @thegoodflow: You're being painted with that broad stroke because suppressing alternative views is what's coming through in your posts. Whether or not you want to admit it, you are building a case to justify these bans--Roadstain repeatedly brought nothing but bitter hate, outright racism, and personal attacks to the site. Good riddance. Now was that repeated, egregious behavior the same for Waki? I'm not so convinced.

I'm not trying to defend the guy, I think he conducted himself like a fool and posted nuisance text walls that are now one less thing to scroll through, but I don't believe he's this monster we should all be thankful is gone.
  • 8 0
 @HaggeredShins: "its healthy to be exposed to opinions and views that are not ours and that we may not agree with" I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure that describes the behaviour of some alpha-commenters who spent more time being abusive than clear about their arguments.
Let's not dress this up, if this was about a balanced exchange of opposing views, even charged with slightly emotive language, we would all be defending the right of both sides to continue the discussion.
But this is about a few people establishing a dominant voice through sheer volume and tenacity, one that predominantly opposes and ridicules their target rather than presenting a coherent opinion. The very point of this behaviour, to troll, is something we all do in the contexts of good friendships, relationships with our loved ones, it's very human.
In the context of total strangers though it's a total dick move, one which may well appeal to those voyeurs eager to see some friction, a behaviour that is meant to offend, to belittle and to dominate, propped up by people who are in no danger of being offended themselves.
I believe the knock on effect is that less people wish to engage when this kind of commentary becomes the norm.
  • 3 2
 @HaggeredShins: Don't be obtuse. Obviously roadstain and Waki are two different people and they have contributed to this forum in very different ways. I'm sorry if I conflated my views towards them in my posts. There are so many people here, many who have contributed to this very thread, that I have disagreed and argued with in the past, sometimes even regrettably devolving into insults and petty bullshit on both sides. Of course I'm not advocating for their dissenting viewpoints to be suppressed. I've already stated a couple times earlier that I appreciate that this forum isn't heavily moderated.
  • 3 1
 well...maybe it's just the nuance that someone else might disagree with you and post a short uneducated 4-letter word laced rant at you and then WAKI (who evidently had massive amounts of time on his hands) would post a 2 page semi-coherent rant at you laced with $4 words.
The method wasn't the same but the sentiment was.
  • 5 1
 @Steventux : So many people to tag or respond to...this thread has a lot of suburbs.

Getting off on tangents I ended up finding this from @radek (re Waki being "gone"): "That's a bunch of bullshit. I get back from the weekend and everyone has gone ban crazy. " (reference: www.pinkbike.com/photo/18817309)

I assume Waki left of his own accord, or I don't understand what mechanism deletes an entire user. But after 3 days of scrolling all I want to do is be a fly on the wall at the next PB staff meeting....they might be in the same library but I'm not sure they're in the same book, let alone same page.
  • 7 2
 @radek: Is racism an "opinion" that you find acceptable? Are you OK with that being communicated on your website? If it is, please let me know, and I'll be happy to leave.
  • 2 1
 @iammarkstewart: lol they should live stream it - more views than for the grim donut review!
And I agree - I think Waki left, as it gives a different error message than for roadstain.
  • 9 4
 @radek: As the founder of this website forum, supporting Waki and his methods of communication, you need to have an outside party explain why it is wrong if you don't see it. I have seen him attack multiple users many times. From bike prices, bike set up, bikes preferred, wheel size, etc. He was a cyber bully. Plain and simple. Told people to have sex with their relatives, made fun of riders new to the sport with practical questions, loved references to Hitler, personally messaged me with some drivel about wanting to kill his daughter and punching his wife. Yeah, protect that guy. There is open conversation, like this. Waki's response would be,"You're to dumb to understand the complexity of conversation to even have a voice". I saved that! He made that comment to ME!! I asked some basic questions about bar/stem width/length. When asked "why go wider though?", Waki came back with that comment! What fun new website I found. So do you condone this type of dialogue? This is how someone new to the sport should be treated? Someone asking questions that would get an understanding being treated like that? Seriously, I would like a response.
  • 4 9
flag me2menow (Jun 8, 2020 at 9:45) (Below Threshold)
 @shredddr: Radek is literally that boomer who'd be like "it makes sense.....all lives DO matter"
  • 1 0
 @shredddr: somebody get their Zoombomb on.
  • 14 3
 @me2menow: Seriously? You piss on Waki for his conduct, in many ways rightfully so, and then proceed to conduct yourself in the exact same way towards Radek with this derogatory boomer pejorative with suppositions about what he believes.

Some of you guys really need a f*cking mirror.
  • 9 0
 @radek: I think you are missing the point man. Everyone is pretty cool with hashing out stuff, even emotionally, on this site...just like this thread is doing now. However there was that .5% of users that truly just sucked. Some were overly horrible...others like Waki were intelligent guys, solid riders but also had little patience for certain things and would devolve into overt trolling...and doing it ALOT at times. That kind of BS has no place here...its not opinion, its just a bunch of douchbaggery which detracts from the site. And its only ever a very very very minute amount of people that do it consistently and need to be managed or removed. Pretty simple stuff...and it will have zero effect on the great debates that occur here across global boundaries.
  • 7 2
 @me2menow: At 47 of age you're not a boomer, you're from Generation X.
  • 6 0
 I’ve decided to come back, as I think the conversation has changed...

Radek, and all the other mods are basically the owners of PB, and being a private organization, they can do whatever they want. Heck, they can even kick everyone who disagrees with them off the site, and have no problems.

I agree with you @radek, I think open comment sections are important. That being said, when the goal is to invite POC to the sport, I would imagine websites that are platforms for hateful speech would only do the opposite. Instead of allowing a new way of thinking, you’re allowing hatred to be tolerated, and displayed throughout the site. I think that your intentions of allowing more opinions is amazing, and we should see it on more sites though.

I would also like to address @pintoproof reply comment. (For anyone reading this, you probably have to scroll up about 200 comments to see it). You stated that “It's usually the racist people who get deeply upset...”. I just wanted to put it out there that it might be mostly racists who get deeply upset, however I can only speak for myself when I say that I, too get deeply upset that someone can have such hatred for someone that they don’t even know. I agree with you, racism should be talked about more, however when you’re trying to address an issue that is extremely important, people making racist comments never helps. I will possibly never understand how much is said towards people of color here in the U.S., however I do have a cousin who is 7 years old, and lives in New York City. She was adopted from Sierra Leone into my family, and she has been here in the U.S. for about a year now. The amount of daily racist comments, and gestures that I’ve heard about from her, and my aunt and uncle are horrible. I cannot begin to imagine how horrible it would be in other places where this is more common, let alone for her when she’s older. Something that many don’t understand is that the BLM movement does not say that white lives aren’t hard, but it is about the unfair struggles of POC. Your opinions are very interesting, and if you wouldn’t mind sharing more of them, please PM me. Everyone has a different story, and if you’re open about it, I would love to hear yours. In addition, it seems like you believe that the way that I’m approaching the issue is wrong, and I’m open to change.

Anyways, for the Waki thing... it seems as though he removed himself intentionally. Waki’s sense of humor was something that would be really good in these comment sections, so I’m sad to see him leave. I understand why he left, and if he hadn’t, he probably would’ve been banned. His comments crossed the line in many instances, and so I think that he took the appropriate move if he didn’t want to change.

Just my opinion.
  • 1 0
 @radek: I think I understand where you are coming from. And there is an area where you can disagree about something verses simply being hateful towards another human being. Tolerance used to mean that one could disagree with someones actions and still respect the person.
  • 2 3
 @thegoodflow: fair point on the my vs our community, i read into it too much. apologies. So much talk happening, hard to keep track. i guess i just think that hostile comments are hostile regardless and i would rather not see them...whether they are racist or directed at a racist. I just believe you should rise above. I was in the military for 20 years so "some white dude from Florida wants to exercise his God given right to speak his mind and just might come around one day, just maybe." I don't think its a god given right....just the right thing to do. I would rather ignore him than shut him down completely. what is gained from shutting him down? you don't have to read his rhetoric anymore, that's great. I just believe that more is lost from that situation. Things much bigger than his narrow minded and probably uninformed point of view. That being said, our opinions differ, we just disagree. No worries.
  • 5 0
 I was a fan of the WAKI, it is sad to see him leave, i have to say his best time was 2014 through 2016, during that time some people (including me) started to understand his sense of humor and started to take him a bit seriously and therefore he started to be more mature with his comments, he even started to have contributions to pinkbikes main articles i honestly thought he was going to get to be Editor or at least draw for the page, but no, something happened, he started sabotaging himself i guess. I remember reading his comments after that period i was like "WTF are doing man? stop writing that sh*t!"
  • 1 0
 on the other side i am pretty sure he will come back with a different account, or he is already back with another account and commenting on this very thread. That would he hilarious
  • 1 0
 @Narro2: yup, you never know...
  • 4 0
 @doublej-cville: I've probably made it very clear in my posts I don't personally agree with censorship and we need to be careful where we set that bar, but there are times when for the sake of the community examples need to be set. Allowing someone to repeatedly spout vitriolic, degrading commentary places a significant social debt on a community--again I for the most part agree with you and this ban bar should be high (perhaps higher than Waki), but in these specific cases removing entirely negative people, demonstrating there is a defined level of toleration that can be transgressed, is important.
  • 2 2
 @HaggeredShins: fair point. I don’t actually want people making overtly racist comments. Apologies for the hyperbole. We agree that the bar needs to be very high. Some of the people here are lumping people who hurt their feelings in with racists. Making “mean” comments isn’t the same.
  • 2 3
 @clink83: Unless one of us is a victim of police brutality, either directly or indirectly, we cannot say how bad it is, based on any article. We all know, or should, that each success of the media (left or right) is presenting a narrative. There are stats that say exactly how much violence the police are perpetrating, and how much the citizenry is perpetrating, and all those numbers stink. What we are looking at now is the culmination of just bad media bias affecting a nation. Many nations. There is politicization of every issue, and with bias media, we can reach find refuge in our own echo chambers. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: the government cannot legislate racial harmony. We need to stop talking about trace, period. This only exacerbates racial divide. That all being said, I saw a person of color riding a bike today, while I was riding, and I'm sure he was headed straight home to complain that his skin color isn't represented on PB.
  • 2 0
 @rcybak: nope
You don’t have to have experienced The exact thing to either be for our against it. That is to relegate truth to experiential only and not absolute
  • 6 2
 Waki is still out there if you know where to look. He dwells in the forests near Gothenburg where the mushrooms grow. I feel he simply transcended the surly bounds of Urth and touched the face of Freyja. Metamorphosis Moth of Doom.
  • 4 1
 To be fair
Anyone defending Waki
Is basically saying “hey listen.... I know he’s crazy... but he’s the kind of crazy that....”
  • 7 4
 @preach: Yep, and were would we be without at least some 'crazy'.

This, from Cranked magazine back a few years ago, is a good read about online communities and trolls in general, and just happens to include an interview that throws light on people's motivations, including one man in particular....

  • 1 1
 @thegoodflow: Helbender is a giant lizard native to Appalachia.
  • 2 0
 @mynameismud: it's actually an aquatic salamander, not a lizard.
  • 5 0
 @orientdave: The printed article actually had more of his artwork. I love Cranked and have all printed issues.

Surprised to see the top thread under this article lean so heavily on one single individual whereas I'd say it is not about the individual, it is about what is being said and done. As for his comments, there were times I agreed, there were times I disagreed, there were times I could see head nor toe and just left the discussion alone. WAKI and I are both members of the so called Ryan Leech Collective (RLC). It is an online mountainbike course led/created by Ryan Leech. I stick with the main website which has room for questions and, aside from Ryan himself, has enough "ambassadors" on board to provide near instant feedback. I think WAKI provides support on the Facebook channel and obviously provides some artwork to his courses, which you may have seen. Even though I haven't had interactions with WAKI over there, I can't imagine him being rude or disrespectful over there. The vibe isn't like that and I can't imagine it being tolerated. After all in a learning community people need to feel safe, to be willing to expose their weaknesses (physically and mentally). No doubt his (and many of ours) tone here isn't like what it is over there (at the RLC) so the question should not necessarily be "who should be banned" or "what should be reprimanded" (which are both on the consequence end). Instead, we could try to figure out "how to inspire people to behave as kind on PB as we know they can elsewhere" (which is more on the cause end). If the very same person is misbehaving here (on occasion) yet is friendly, constructive and respectful elsewhere, then we should look into the situational factors. Sure the big deal is of course, RLC is a learning community so it needs to be safe for it to function. And I feel it is also cool that it is heavily under development. Everything you do there, say there is actively being used to make the courses better. So even as a student, you feel like you're helping with the construction of the courses too. And maybe because PB is quite mature at this stage, a comment over here just simply is as relevant as it is on RLC. Or well, it sure is relevant (as every comment could trigger, inspire or hurt others) but it may just not feel like that.

Now this is merely analysis, I honestly don't know how to reach this goal. Maybe we can have a brainstorm and work this out. But I do feel the issue isn't only in the people. If the same people can behave well elsewhere and can be rude over here, then these people CAN behalve well full stop. We need to figure out how to make PB a safe place for people to be respectful and feel respected. I know there are a million reasons to point out why it isn't but if we want it to become more respectful, we need to figure out how to make it such.
  • 3 0
 @vinay: Very well written. Thank you. How to reach the goal you mentioned? I don't know.

The basic question might be: is PB a website that provides "lessons" on how-to behave in a polite way? I don't think so. People should come here and already know how to behave politely and then do so.

Because this community is so big, banning users is the easiest and most secure way to get rid of the trouble-makers. I'm not saying PB is making it easy for themselves - not at all. But I think there's no other efficient way.
  • 2 0
 @sarahmoore: An easy solution is to allow vetted members help you monitor comments. It would work like this: You pick 100 members you know or trust and give them the ability to flag a comment for review. Then a PB staffer only has to filter through the specially flagged comments and make a decision on what to do about those specifically. Most of us read most of the comments on most posts so you would have really good coverage. If you want to encourage membership, get a few sponsors to offer ongoing discounts in exchange - maybe even an annual ride event. It would be easy to communicate your goals and have us help you carry them out. You have a lot of diversity in your members and plenty of talent - use it. Any community does best when we all look out for each other, this is no different.
  • 1 2
 @vinay: Absolutely Vinay; it is something I have been wrestling with in our business here too.

There is a huge body of work arising from the initial Stanford Prisoner Experiment, through the Abu Ghraib prison abuse case research related to the issue of not whether, but exactly how environments can lead to changes in the behaviour of individuals.

Here at PB, and of course only speaking personally, I feel that it has been largely, not exclusively, but largely left up to the individual users themselves to police their own behaviour thus far.

On the plus side, PB is to be applauded therefore for the freedom of expression that they have allowed over the past decade as a result.

However, on the other hand, it means that there are a large number of users on all sides of most of the debates that take place here who either

a) are incapable of,
b) ignorant of the need to, or
c) wilfully ignore

.... the need to police their own behaviour whilst here.

And I would not be surprised if we found that research in the social sciences had already understood that we all have the potential to move in both directions along the continuum between "respectful, open, collaborative communication" on the one side and "vicious polemic laced dogmatism" on the other.

As an aside, I can fully understand why some people (and I have done so myself on a number of occasions) will get so 'pissed' with the vitriol spouted by some here who do not police their own behaviour that they take people to task. Waki was one of those, even though many think he was just an annoying troll. I act in the same way too on occasion, and have ended up apologising to people for going too far as a result sometimes.

That though is a corollary of the freedom given to the users here on PB thus far; with little overt moderation, vigilante users will appear and try to purge the place of those at the extremities with differing levels of success.

So, back on point, as you say, how does one create the environment, in PB's case, an online environment where everyone far more often sits on the respectful side of the continuum?

All I can offer as a suggestion, other than the Chicago Statement (referred to previously in this thread), is my experience of a facebook group that pretty universally maintains a respectful environment.

The group essentially operates by making sure in no uncertain terms what is and is not expected of users in the group upon registration (your registration is moderated for a start!!) and is very similar to the idea of a corporate vision as set out by @friendlyfoe in a post in another part of this page's threads.

The mods are clear about what is and is not acceptable, and they themselves both follow the rules and ensure they are followed.

People who are prepared to read the rules and take them on board then help the entire community to self-police themselves. Those people who are vocal in their opposition to having their perceived inalienable right to say what they want how and when they want, are rarely long-term members and either leave voluntarily or are summarily banned.

As a result, the group keeps growing in a positive direction.

Would such a model work for PB? Mmmm, it is less than a 20th of the size of the PB crowd. Apples and Oranges perhaps.Still, that is not my nor any of our place to determine.

Good luck Brian, Karl and the team on whatever you end up trying out. I for one will support anything that increases the overall level of mutual respect here on PB.
  • 1 1
 There are different levels of motivation (to do well). The low levels are extrinsic, the higher levels are intrinsic. The lowest level would be "do this, otherwise you'll be punished". Slightly higher would be, "do this and you'll be rewarded". Intrinsic would be that the person just really wants to do well and make it work. Those would for instance be the ones who started Pinkbike by their own motivation without expecting anything in return. So banning people based on what they write might be effective, but it is pretty low level. And the downside is that it actually drives people away from taking ownership of their own actions, their contribution to their community. Pinkbike is pretty mature now. Creating a hierarchical structure with a "management", "mods with policing//monitoring functions" and the "visitors who need to be monitored" might make those very visitors less accountable for their own behavior. Kind of what you see in real life communities (companies, cities vs villages etc) too. The smaller and less structured it is, the more people feel engaged to cooperate and contribute. In my comparison of RLC vs PB, I think RLC students do all feel that their input helps to make the courses better and both Ryan Leech as well as the ambassadors explicitly make all input feel welcomed. I don't think there is much policing around, if any. And it is because of that vulnerability that makes people feel like they should behave. The bummer is that as communities grow bigger, they will continue to function well even when some don't behave or even contribute so at some point you'll probably have to police (that is provide lowest level of motivation) to keep things in check. But it shouldn't be the main solution. It is kind of a trap if you rely on it too much.
  • 3 0
 @DoubleCrownAddict: This! PB is just saving face with a post. Police your site more. Free speech isn't the same thing as hate speech.
  • 1 3
 @scary1: agree completely
  • 3 0
 @thegoodflow: I agree with the overestimation of his intelligence sentiment. It’s quite obvious through most of his monologues
  • 3 0
 @nattysupper: the PB comment section is full of white men and teenage boys. Ain’t no way that is representative thus cannot be a good example of discourse because it inherently doesn’t include the opinions of many different groups
  • 4 8
flag Rageingdh (Jun 12, 2020 at 20:35) (Below Threshold)
 This must be where the snowflakes hang out.
  • 6 0
 @Rageingdh: Man it must be exhausting being full of so much edge and wit. I dunno where you come up with gems like this. Probably the same place you dug up every other super creative comment you've ever made on Pinkbike. Here's a couple nuggets that blew me away: "You sound fun at parties." Oh man! So Original! "Freedom of speech must really scare you." Deep man, deep. "Kinda sounds like the way you guys are acting. " Ah, classic. The trusty NO YOU riposte.

I mean honestly, if you don't write for a living, you should. You know what they say, if you're good at something don't do it for free right my man?
  • 1 0
 @Rucker10: @Rageingdh @Ryanrobinson1984: so many R names with such varying opinions!
  • 1 3
 @Rucker10: there’s one.
  • 1 1
 So, why did Waki account get banned? What comments got him banned?
  • 1 1
 @tacklingdummy: he removed himself I’m pretty sure...
  • 2 4
 @Euskafreez: shut up you bloody bogan
  • 2 0
 @Riwajc: 'bogan' lol. I'm impressed someone else here knows what a bogan is and means.
  • 2 0
 @streetkvnt-kvlt: It's OK to be a bogan. #keepBoganAndCarryOn #BoganLivesMatter lol
  • 2 0
 @Euskafreez: VB beers, flannel shirt, Falcon/Commodore ute and a mullet is life. NZ bogans still need to up their bogan game compared to Aussie bogans lol.
  • 1 1
 @thegoodflow: helbenders a lizard.
  • 1 1
 @noah-noahEone: they’ll all be shot soon enough so don’t worry about it !
  • 1 0
 @noah-noahEone: Hellbenders are salamanders which are amphibians. Lizards are reptiles.
  • 562 99
  • 168 72
 The fact 3 people so far have downvoted you is very depressing. Not shocking. Just depressing that these racists are so cowardly about what they think is 'right' that they aren't brave enough to just come out and say it. Instead they have to hide behind a red downward arrow. Losers.
  • 122 37
 make the downvotes public
  • 101 38
 Anyone who responds or feels like "#alllivesmatter" is missing the entire point of the reasoning behind stating that black lives do matter.
  • 91 22
 @drpheta: these people know what they're doing.

they pretend that they think "black lives matter" means "only black lives matter", when of course it means "black lives matter, too"

it's a disingenuous attempt to change the subject. those people don't argue in good faith.
  • 21 14
 @xeren: Agreed. It is being intentionally dense to sweep the legs out of the movement.
  • 6 30
flag Shadylurker (Jun 5, 2020 at 10:23) (Below Threshold)
 @4thflowkage: you're giving people too much credit if you think its intentional.
  • 126 31
 @Shadylurker: 5 years ago it was an uninformed but nonmalicious quip, by now it's a thinly veiled racist dogwhistle. Which is why we're not going to allow it in the comments going forward.
  • 21 42
flag DaFreerider44 (Jun 5, 2020 at 10:28) (Below Threshold)
 Anybody wanna claim the 11 downvotes so we can destroy you?
  • 18 30
flag mgolder (Jun 5, 2020 at 10:32) (Below Threshold)
 @DaFreerider44: They're cowards. Votes being anonymous allows them to hide behind that. I mean, I hate Facebook but the ability to see who has used what emote is useful when weeding out certain people.
  • 6 16
flag Svinyard (Jun 5, 2020 at 10:53) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: I'm hopeful that you guys can keep a list of usual suspects etc. You don't have to do anything too them but obviously mods being able to identify repeat offenders and remove them drastically opens up the community to people not interested in wading into the dredges. You can start the list with the 15 people downvoting up there.
  • 44 74
flag IntoTheEverflow (Jun 5, 2020 at 11:07) (Below Threshold)
 I am one of the downvoters, but it is hard to explain why I did that.
I care a lot about black lives, but I think the reason BLM is pushed very hard through the media, is not as good as it seems to be at first sight.
This video can maybe explain it to someone who is open minded:

It was made by a black man, so maybe that can take away some suspicions about his motives.
  • 70 6
 @IntoTheEverflow: I think that type of thinking is a luxury that people of color don't have. This is MLK's response to that type of thinking (which I've been there before as well...this stuff is messy). Good discussion here tho. I'd not downvote you.

  • 10 5
 @mgolder: I'm not surprised at all. I've had more than a couple of interchanges with despicable folks on here. Not saying that all rednecks are racist, but I grew up in a small town, and racism was more common than in a big city. I would hazard a guess that more people ride mountain bikes in small towns in the USA than in big cities.
  • 45 9
 @IntoTheEverflow: I admit that I didn't watch the whole 46 minute video, however I gathered that it's a Christian website promoting the idea that the suffering of marginalized groups is somehow preordained by a higher power.
This is obviously great news, and I would assume that we can call off the protests now. "It's ok guys, you've been persecuted, mired in systemic inequality, and murdered for centuries now, but it's just because God wants it to happen that way, so just relax!"
  • 10 13

"make the downvotes public"

Good idea. Accountability reduces the urge to do anonymous drive-by racist DVs
  • 18 1
 @gserrato: re "make the downvotes public"; there are lots of valid reasons to downvote comments and making them public opens up a whole host of problems like brigading, abuse etc.

It's a hard problem to solve.
  • 37 82
flag Euskafreez (Jun 5, 2020 at 14:19) (Below Threshold)
 @gserrato: I downvoted for the sake of it, there is nothing like pushing the SJW's buttons. I DOWNVOTED because I don't want to live in 1984. Do you get that Mister right ? What's next, a state police going after any deviants like myself because they don't align with you ?
Your utopia was called Soviet Union not long ago. A time and place where racism and freedom did not exist. You can't have anti-racism and freedom, it is sad but that's how it is : Anti-racism or freedom, pick one. Living under the iron curtain is something I'll never forget, ever.
  • 11 14
 @makudad: That was not the message at all.
And no matter how little you watched, that could never have been gathered from that video.
The video is about manipulation by the media and how different groups are being oppressed and put against each other.

By the way, you might want to read a bible some day, because your notion of what God wants is totally off.
  • 18 3
 @IntoTheEverflow: anti Semitic, religious conspiracy. That video is insane.
  • 46 73
flag KnobbyNC (Jun 5, 2020 at 15:50) (Below Threshold)
 I'll downvote.

BLM is a radical political agenda hiding behind a name that no one in good conscience can disagree with.

BLM increases racial divisions by promoting instances of white on black violence as evidence of America's/American's systematic racism. I disagree with the premise that racism is implicit in all of these interactions. I disagree that blaming systematic racism is the best way to address problems and inequalities afflicting black Americans.

This faulty premise goes straight to the core of BLM. The organization was founded after the not guilty verdict in the Zimmerman trial and really gained momentum after the Michael Brown shooting. In both cases, the media/BLM narrative was proven to be false.

BLM has used these and other similar instances to stoke civil unrest and violence in black communities. BLM ignores the condemnation of actual bad actors and uses them to impugn the character of millions of innocent Americans.

BLM is heavy on blame but light on solutions. One of their few actual policy proposals, defund police, is a terrible idea.

Promoting minority involvement in mountain biking and amplifying minority viewpoints are laudable goals, but there is no need for Pinkbike to throw their support behind an overtly political organization that has been extremely divisive in their own right.
  • 86 29

As much as having dissenting opinions seems to have been socially outlawed, I’m going to have to agree somewhat.

Although I shouldn’t have to, I will preface this with the statement that I fully support action that stops this sort of police brutality. I also understand that statistically speaking, black Americans do significantly worse on average due to historical racist context and bad corrective policy dating back decades. I agree that the US should work to fix this.

This leads to my first point. Pink bike is an international website. Why am I logging on and reading American politics entirely unrelated to mountain biking? If you want to work to remove racism from the comments section, go for it! Don’t bring American politics into it!

The second is the presumption of correctness of the BLM organisations position and handling of this. More generally, the presumption that there is a unified set of values and facts that lead to an obvious and conclusive position to hold on this. This isn’t true even in America, let alone the whole world. I can guarantee that the majority of people in China have a very different view on this. Who gets to say they’re wrong? You? The loudest person screaming on Twitter? The richest celebrities?

By moderating the ideas in the comments you are directly asserting that there are correct ideas. That does in fact make you the thought police. Suppression of ideas is the hallmark of oppression, not matter how bad or dangerous we may believe those ideas to be.

This whole article is extremely opinionated while presenting itself as a outlay of the facts. I actually agree with many of the opinions but that doesn’t make them true or right. The world is after all, not black and white, but grey, even on the issues that seem entirely polarised on the surface.

At the end of the day, it’s a privately owned website and they do what they want but I would suggest pinkbike does some deep introspection and try to understand that they are not the arbiters of truth and neither is mainstream opinion. After all, not long ago, mainstream opinion was that the world is flat. The best option for a global publisher is simply to stay out of it!
  • 18 9
 @Mini-Pinner: I fear that if your country flag was an American flag and not the flag of New Zealand, you would have been down voted into oblivion.
Food for thought: while available internationally, PinkBike is a Canadian company. So, who's free speech and free press rules govern these articles and comments?
  • 9 8
 @Mini-Pinner: awesome
  • 29 35
flag KnobbyNC (Jun 5, 2020 at 23:28) (Below Threshold)

Thanks for the post. You fleshed out a lot of what I was getting at.

The presumption of correctness of BLM's position and handling is a serious issue here. The body of the article treats some pretty controversial BLM positions as fact and then wraps it up with an explicit endorsement. That's an incredible move for a mountain bike website and what prompted me to post. I'm equal parts shocked and concerned that BLM's rhetoric has permeated our culture to the point that a Canadian mountain bike website felt compelled to post this.

I wouldn't expect PB to endorse Trump or Trudeau, so why hitch their wagon to the highly politicized BLM. Does PB intend to endorse defunding the police, reparations, Marxism? You'll find all that and more on BLM's website and various twitter feeds, not to mention some of the vile things associated with the hashtag.

I had to roll my eyes at some of the cliches here but I'm on board with the bike related stuff. Promote minority involvement in cycling - Cool. Feature minority voices on the website - Cool. Crack down on overtly racist comments/posters - Cool. I don't see how it's relevant on this site, but I'm with the 99.9% of people against police brutality and for putting criminal cops in prison.

I'm disappointing that PB felt the need to jump on the America is systematically racist bandwagon. The author freely admits he doesn't intend to offer any solutions, so what's the point other than declaring yourself not racist? Don't worry PB, BLM isn't offering any solutions either.
  • 29 3
 @mgolder: Not supporting #BLM is not racist, unless the motivation is racist(belief in superiority/inferiority based on race). The ideological intolerance of such statements is inexcusable. There are numerous videos of intelligent black Americans expressing their disagreement and frustration with the movement, and statistical reason to question some assertions of it. There is room in society for intelligent and constructive dialogue and dissent, and much danger of regressive decisions based on groupthink. Much of the disfunction in modern society is based on a prevalence of filter bubble ignorance, where one's exposure to perspectives is self limited to the point that one develops a skewed and singular depiction of reality. Ditch the filter bubble. Ditch all forms of intolerance. Stop dividing. Stop hating. See the world through more than one lens. Plz.
  • 22 18

This is just one of many issues with BLM. Its very name implies that a significant number of people don't care about black lives and tacitly labels its opponents as racist. I and many others reject the premise and disagree with their tactics and rhetoric.
  • 36 18
 @scary1: That's an incorrect assertion - the far right have spent the last decade or so shifting their dialogue to be more mainstream-friendly, they realised that shouting the N word and ranting about jews was going to leave them marginalised. So they shifted to become the alt-right rather than neo-nazis, talking about globalism instead of jews, and so on, all to enable people to make arguments like the one you just made. Christian Piccolini explains it far better than I can:

  • 8 3
 @rjdelly: I'm not sure there are any rules that would apply here but I don't think it should matter. This should be a matter of common sense given the events that took place in the last century. Unfortunately, It seems people in the last few generations have not been educated on what exactly took place and the idea suppression tactics that were used to control the narrative and justify atrocities on all sides.
  • 38 16

"By moderating the ideas in the comments you are directly asserting that there are correct ideas."

Notwithstanding the fact that PB are free to moderate as they see fit, there absolutely *are* correct ideas. That's why we have things like human rights. One of these is the right not to be discriminated against. I'm sure you can join the dots.

"That does in fact make you the thought police."

Well no, no it doesn't. People are free to think what they like, and quite obviously cannot be prevented from doing so. They are not however free to express what they like.


A somewhat privileged viewpoint, that suppression of your ideas is the worst thing that could happen to you. The hallmark of oppression is actual oppression, in the context of which merely having your ideas suppressed would be a luxury compared to being trafficked for slavery, having your possessions seized, or being herded into ghettos and other such horrors.

And finally some ideas are dangerous which is why expressing them is prohibited by laws against incitement and the like. Free speech is not absolute. It does not mean - and has never meant - being able to say whatever you like, wherever you like, to whoever you like.
  • 6 6
 @Mini-Pinner: I agree. I don't think it should matter either. But it does. Yes, it should all be common sense, but it is not. I thought your post that I replied to was very well put together. I mentioned freedom of speech a ways above this and got hammered for it. Last I checked it was +5 -43 votes. And like you, I also agree with the main article on some points and not others. The issues I do not agree with have nothing to do with general human rights. Here in the states we have the ACLU, American Civil Liberties Union. Here is what they have on their website regarding free press: "A free media functions as a watchdog that can investigate and report on government wrongdoing. It is also a vibrant marketplace of ideas, a vehicle for ordinary citizens to express themselves and gain exposure to a wide range of information and opinions."
The second sentence seems to be the idea being overlooked on this forum right now.
  • 17 7
 @Mini-Pinner: People should not be murdered on television, but they are. The leader of a free country with the constitutional right to peaceful assemble and protest should not be ordering the police or the military to brutally and violently shut its people down. Black men especially have been targeted by racist policing. This is no longer the minority opinion, especially after the last few weeks where people have been watching these unfold right on the viewing screens. Some things are “right vs wrong” some things are universally good or evil, and right now the conversation about this needs to happen. If you are not from the US or Canada maybe you don’t understand as much. We watch black men and women get killed almost every week in the US.
  • 13 4
 @rjdelly: "A free press..."

Except the pinkbike comments sections are not part of the free press or media, nor is Congress (or any other government) deciding to limit speech. This is a decision by a private company to live by their own values on their comments section.

There is no more reasonable expectation that you should get to come here and say whatever you want, without consequence, then there is an expectation that I can interrupt the National Prayer breakfast to read from the Satanic Bible. The good news, is that if this pisses you off, there are lots of other websites that you can use.
  • 7 0
 @Euskafreez: there’s a major flaw in this argument that freedom fundamentalists ignored: if others should not take action that limits your freedom or opportunity than you likewise must do the same to guarantee the freedom of others, unless if you don’t believe in the western idea of multicultural democratic societies. In any state but anarchy individual freedoms must have reasonable limits else freedom is not universal.
  • 8 16
flag unleash (Jun 6, 2020 at 8:17) (Below Threshold)
 @Mini-Pinner: ahhh a voice of reason amongst the gatekeepers of acceptable opinions ,tread carefully, your language will be policed and the torches and pitchforks maybe gathered,failing that maybe they will create an online gulag.
  • 8 13
flag KnobbyNC (Jun 6, 2020 at 8:51) (Below Threshold)


Despite your preemptive accusation, I posted by reasons for downvoting. 58 downvotes for me and counting and not a single post refuting my points. I suppose they are cowards?
  • 15 3
 @KnobbyNC: Ok, I'll start.

There's a difference between supporting the idea (the hashtag? cringe) that black lives matter, and supporting the organization (BLM). They are not the same thing. I can support a movement to reduce criminal behavior by police officers and bring about actual equality without supporting a political organization like BLM. Notice that nowhere in the article did PinkBike actually endorse BLM, the organization. They simply acknowledged that, in order for everyone to actually matter, black (and other POC) lives have to matter, first. Do you understand the difference between believing in an idea (that black lives matter) and endorsing a political organization?
  • 4 2
 @brianpark: Agree to disagree then. I'm not going to label someones aunt Sharon who volunteers at a Foodbank weekly serving the underserved as a racist or being hateful because someone labeled a hashtag a "thinly veiled racist dog-whistle." When in reality there is no conversation or dialog happening with that individual. You simply don't know what it means to them. The same reason people don't understand that "black lives matter" doesn't mean "ONLY". However, It's great if you don't want to allow it in the comments. I wasn't proposing otherwise.
  • 19 7

Millions of people of color across the united states leave their home every day wondering if they will make it to work without being accosted by the police. This is a legitimate fear they have based on past experience, which you would know to be true if you were paying any attention to the absolute endless stories coming out in the media of people's past experiences of exactly this.

But your concern is that you might be incorrectly labeled as a racist? Your ego is so fragile and you cling so desperately to the privilege you have that you care more about protecting your view of yourself than helping the people who are dying in the street? It's this very specific kind of cowardice and fear that letting other races have the same freedoms you enjoy will somehow affect your way of life that has resulted in the situation we see unfolding.

Every person protesting in the streets cares more about helping someone else than protecting their own safety. It is only the rule of law if it is applied evenly to all people, otherwise it is tyranny from the majority. People of color live under tyranny from their own police system and are not going to wait for your permission, or a timeline you are comfortable with, to be able to leave their homes without having to worry about being assaulted by the police.

Actions speak louder than words. Saying you support black lives or aren't a racist doesn't make it true. Living in a country where people of color are under constant threat and not being willing to stand up for them when you have the opportunity shows where you really stand and that those words are meaningless.
  • 7 8


Of course I do, everyone supports the idea that black lives matter. The problem is that it is a deliberately politically loaded slogan that includes a broader agenda and a specific set of presuppositions. That agenda is advanced via the organization and the hashtag. Its very much like "Make America Great Again." I disagree with the premise and the agenda, hence why I downvoted the "#blacklivesmatter" post.
  • 7 5
 @KnobbyNC: How is saying "black lives matter" a politically loaded slogan? How is asking people to agree that the lives of black people must matter political in nature? If it is political, why would one political party or group object to that statement, or, not agree with it? I don't support defunding police, but I agree with the overall premise that police reform is needed. See? You can support portions of a platform without agreeing with all of it. Crazy.
  • 10 15
flag JohanG (Jun 6, 2020 at 13:28) (Below Threshold)
 @LeDuke: Of course black lives matter. But if we want to investigate the dissenters to the subject, perhaps we should ask the black community why 93% of blacks are murdered by other blacks in a nation like the USA.
  • 8 5

If my primary concern was not being labeled a racist I would never have commented.

There are thousands of organizations whose mission and goal is to help minority communities and address inequalities. You can promote these causes and denounce acts of racism without accepting BLM's presupposition that American culture is systematically racist and does not equally value black lives.

The BLM movement is forcing public compliance with its deceptively innocuous message, while its base pursues and promotes a radical agenda. Reparations, Marxist, and anti-white rhetoric are all closely tied to the movement. You can see it for yourself in their twitter feeds.

My concern and opinion is that BLM's divisive message is escalating tensions and doing more harm than good. At least two innocent black men were killed by rioters this week.
  • 8 7

Its a loaded statement because it implies our culture and institutions do not adequately value black lives. I think this is a terrible staring point for debate.

I also don't believe the BLM movement is interested in unity or compromise. Check out their official twitter feeds and you will see some disturbing rhetoric. I posted a quote from BLM Chicago's twitter earlier that celebrated the burning of the Amazon distribution center. PB deleted it.

It poisons what could be fruitful discussions on topics like police reform. You can't engage in good faith reforms when you know one side really wants to burn it all down.
  • 1 0
 @gserrato: boo hoo
  • 16 5
 @KnobbyNC: How can you be dismissive of the fact that people of color all over the united states, including many well educated successful people, are telling you that they are being tyrannized and targeted by the police. That every year we are now catching on video police officers murdering unarmed and often completely innocent people of color.

And your response is I don't think the American system is racist and lets not escalate tensions. How is it even possible for you to say that? When a population is tyrannized by their government it is just a matter of time before they rise up against them. People can and will get hurt along the way, but to suggest that others should live under those conditions because you're pretty comfortable says a lot about your character.

As far as BLM I mean who cares. They might be leading the movement but no one is talking about putting them in charge of government and the extreme ends of their rhetoric will never be supported by the population. Besides it's only logical to suggest views more extreme than what you're actually trying to achieve so that you can meet the other side half way. It's basic bargaining.
  • 1 1
 @JohanG: The question at hand is whether or not the government and its various entities treat one group of people differently than another. Do you disagree that various minorities (black, Native, latino) have different outcomes under the law, and different treatment by the government, than their white counterparts?
  • 7 10
 @rockplough: I believe you may be trying to intentionally misrepresent what I was saying but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just ignorant.

" there absolutely *are* correct ideas. That's why we have things like human rights"

Universal human rights is a human invention that is barely a century old now. Previous human rights declarations would exclude different races or women as they saw fit. The word universal is also misleading as many countries do not agree on the content of these documents. To suggest that we have perfected this and there is no room for dissenting opinions on the status quo is unbelievably naive.

Perhaps it's worth taking a moment to remember that correctness is only that which the majority agrees with. We are slaves to opinion and perspective. An easy example is to remember again that not so long ago, it was 'correct' that the world is flat. Think what we will realise we were wrong about in another couple of centuries?

Second point is semantics.

"A somewhat privileged viewpoint, that suppression of your ideas is the worst thing that could happen to you"

An amazing misrepresentation here. I did not suggest that suppression of ideas was the ultimate oppression. I said it was 'a hallmark'. - "A hallmark is a distinctive characteristic of something". Where there is suppression of ideas, you risk finding oppression of people. Not necessarily the same person in both cases.

While avoiding a full on history lesson, I would suggest looking at Hitlers and Stalins regimes as blatant examples of it. Or simply read about propaganda and censorship. I will avoid injecting my political opinions here but it is not me I'm worried about in this instance.

The last point seems to muddle ideas and speech? I would argue incitement is an action, not an idea. I'm not suggesting illegal content should be allowed in the pinkbike comments section. I'm not sure where you're going with the free speech part? It depends which country you are in, it depends what you mean by "being able to"...
  • 8 3
 @Mini-Pinner: Private entities not giving a voice to racist a*sholes on their website is not the suppression of ideals. At least in the United States, you are fully free to be an a*shole and say offensive things, but you still might suffer consequences for those actions. Freedom of speech does NOT mean freedom from consequences, which is what right wingers don't seem to get.
  • 5 5
 @Mini-Pinner: I 100%agree. Feel like I have to point out that I am a POC... or I might be labeled racist. Also American and I come here to not read about American politics.
  • 10 0
 @Svinyard: “who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice”

Damn. That’s a tough reality to have to face. True today as it ever was. But damn.
  • 11 2
 @JohanG: That is the effect of generational inequality, and systemic racism. Those who are BIPOC simply do not have the opportunities that I have been provided in my life as a white, middle class Canadian, and when you're born marginalized, and with fewer economic prospects than your white counterparts, you can easily find yourself on a slippery slope. I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's just something to think about.
  • 3 3
Whilst I agree with you wholeheartedly that freedom of speech and expression is and should be tempered under laws such as libel, incitement to violence and so on, I have to echo what @Mini-Pinner has said about the assertion that 'there absolutely *are* correct ideas'.

I have lived for over a quarter of a century in Japan after having spent a virtually identical amount of time in the UK prior. I can assure you that the concept of which ideas are 'correct' from the maelstrom of opinion that is the myriad of unique societies that make up our world, is both politically, temporally and culturally relative.

Attempting to distil those down into absolute truths takes a huge amount of intellectual effort and is not a guarantee of success even then. My ideas personally of what is universally true has without doubt been changed by spending 25 years in a culture far removed from that of my country of birth, and I am convinced that what you and I may consider as being universal will look outdated a century from now.

Anyways, I appreciate the discussions here. Thanks.
  • 7 12
flag KnobbyNC (Jun 6, 2020 at 22:06) (Below Threshold)


I'm not being dismissive. I understand that racial inequities exist and that people are hurting as a result. That doesn't mean I have to accept the views of all that purport to represent the oppressed. Many well educated successful people of all races disagree with the goals and tactics of the BLM movement.


Forgive me for advocating against a violent uprising, you know, I just live live here. Maybe I'd think differently if I was sitting comfortably up in Canada. I don't believe the statistics or anecdotal data justify that kind of rhetoric and many people agree with me, minorities included. A majority of minorities have a favorable opinion of local police and are in favor of hiring more police officers. We could do better of course, but we would be much better off focusing our efforts on lowering the crime rate than raging against the system every time the inevitable incident occurs. This focus on racism detracts from real reforms. I'd like to see an actual discussion on eliminating police unions, eliminating no-knock warrants, modifying use of force protocols, etc.

That's my core problem with the BLM movement. Every incident of white on black violence is attributed to racism by default and must be plastered all over the news as evidence of this war on black people. We could give BLM everything they want right now and tragedies are still going to happen. There are over 15,000 murders a year in the U.S. and about 1,000 people a year are killed by police. When will institutional racism be cured? I fear never by BLM's definition. Every time some white guy does something stupid or evil we will be right back where we started.


First, thats an incredibly generous take for BLM. I doubt anyone would get upvotes on here for saying don't worry about that far-right organization, their rhetoric will never be supported and they're basically just bargaining. Secondly, I wouldn't be so sure. BLM is obviously a pretty powerful movement as evidenced by the fact were discussing it on this site. Antifa has had free reign in the streets for the past week, far-left ideologues have an iron grip on our university system, and a socialist almost won the Democratic presidential nomination the last two cycles. Third, their extreme rhetoric is held in check by reasonable people stepping up and saying something despite mainstream pressure not to.
  • 4 1
 @orientdave: @orientdave: I am of Japanese descent myself. I understand that cultural norms vary. I do however think that the right to not be discriminated against - fundamental to this discussion and current events - is one which is widely considered sacrosanct. That's really the one I was thinking of, but I accept I was not that specific.
  • 7 1
 @Mini-Pinner: "I believe you may be trying to intentionally misrepresent what I was saying but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just ignorant."

No, simply taking your post at face value, but how gracious of you.


Factual, but there's no point being made here. All ideas are human inventions. Is it your position that the newness of an idea correlates to its (lack of) validity? I would not agree. The US Civil Right Act is barely *fifty* years old. And so what if previous declarations were deficient? Naturally things have gone before which we would not countenance today. That is human progress.

"The word universal is also misleading as many countries do not agree on the content of these documents."

You introduced 'the word universal' so are attacking yourself here.


Nowhere do I suggest things are perfect, but dissenting opinions on basic human rights? Be my guest.

"Second point is semantics."

If you say so. The only other meaning doesn't apply either.


No. You said it was 'THE hallmark' (my emphasis). Singular. A small but profound difference.


Conflation of PB's moderation policy with actual fascist regimes. I'll just leave that one there.

"I would argue incitement is an action, not an idea."

You don't have to argue it. That's the very point I was making. Incitement is tantamount to an action, but is expressed as an idea. This is why we cannot defend the expression of ideas, in your words "not matter how bad or dangerous we may believe those ideas to be.".
  • 2 1
 @JohanG: You can't speak of such things ! Just like following the rules and laws will keep people of all colors out of harm's way when dealing with the authorities
  • 1 0
 @clink83: You mean consequences like loosing a job or going to jail?
  • 6 8
 @KnobbyNC: Thank you for pointing the out. As usual, BLM and all the other “progressive” movements are full of evil. They want unrest, not what is truly best.
So yes, you are correct.
  • 11 3

I’m sorry I’m just still trying to wrap my head around this mindblower

They don’t. End of discussion.

And apparently an uprising was ok for all the right wingers marching on state capitals with guns but it’s not ok for those in support of the BLM movement?

I can’t even.
  • 2 1
 @rockplough: No worries. Have you been here?

TBH, after 25 years here, I consider myself to have morphed into some kind of 'Zelig' character that has learnt to adapt their way of thinking to the situation in hand. My opinions about what is the right thing to do are (too?) flexible now compared to when I lived in the UK.

I hope that the concept of universal human rights takes hold...
I am less than optimistic about it if the truth be told since we all tend to show the ability to be infinitely pliable in the right (by which I mean 'wrong') circumstances.
Take care Sir.
  • 5 1
 @rockplough: I won't go through all your points as I don't think many will lead to interesting debate, just semantics (unless you request otherwise). A few I would like to stress though:

You introduced 'the word universal' so are attacking yourself here."

I was criticising the premise of universal human rights to try and show that ideas which seem universally good on the surface can be nuanced. I was not insinuating that you brought it up.

"Conflation of PB's moderation policy with actual fascist regimes. I'll just leave that one there"

Probably my fault for not clarifying that one. If it was just pinkbike then I wouldn't care. But it is not just pinkbike, This sort of suppression of ideas is spreading throughout institutions, public and private, across the western world including social media which is the main form of information acquisition for a large proportion of the population. There is no room being left for nuance or even facts in many cases where what appears to be a strict narrative is enforced.

Is it a fact to state that 'males and females are different'? I believe so (and so does science) but I have seen people banned for posting it online. I could pick much more controversial and important statements that give the same effect but don't want to distract from the point. The point being that if pinkbike and every other forum bans statements like this because they are deemed 'wrong ideas' then we are in a very bad place. The next war will likely be fought entirely with (dis)information. It may have already started. The cracks are starting to show. Do not be deceived as to the seriousness of these actions.

"Nowhere do I suggest things are perfect, but dissenting opinions on basic human rights? Be my guest."

Challenge accepted:

Human rights are predicated entirely on a modern western centric view of the world, humanity and morality.

The first thing to understand is that human rights are not intrinsic. The idea of intrinsic rights is a fallacy in itself as rights are a human invention, and thus cannot be intrinsic to human life which predates human invention, but merely assigned (not usually debated but some people don't seem to understand this). The only way you can get around this is holding a belief in a deity which has assigned the rights (god given rights). Obviously this is very limiting as we must rely on religious texts to identify these rights (which usually do not fit well into modern western society).

Because these rights are invented, we must choose a basis for them. There is no basis that satisfies the values of all different belief systems. The UDHR is supposedly the standard for all countries in the UN yet many of the countries don't even pretend to adhere to it. Other countries outright deny its validity. You and I may believe that the value system of Saudi Arabia is rubbish but that is just an opinion. Opinions by definition cannot be correct.

Want a specific example of dissenting opinions on human rights:

Finally, some perhaps ironic passages from the universal declaration of human rights:



If you truly believe the way forward is to ban the transmission of ideas which someone (who even gets to decide?) deems incorrect then we truly have learned nothing as a society.
  • 11 2
 I can support police reforms to stop the violence against any people and the racist targeting of blacks an POC, but I can't support BLM. BLM is a racist hate group.
And fighting racism with racism lead to nowhere. It just divides the people even further.
This black woman speeks excatly what I think of BLM

Feel free to downvote, not that I care.

But let me tell you that the worst racists are those race baiting people who see racism everywhere and constantly tell POC and blacks that they are poor victims that can never archive something on their own instead of helping them to overcome their circumstances. Those peole are real problem, because they hold black people back.
And we have so much upvoted hyprocrites in the comments it's almost absurd. People who preach love and spit hate at the same time.

I hope Pinkbike makes the right decisions to prevent bad people from both sides taking over the comments.
  • 2 0
 @OneTrustMan: That was interesting, thanks for sharing.

A few generations ago society also preferred the more moderate MLK approach over the "extremist" Nation of Islam.

Pretty obvious why a lot of people think now may be the time to try the less passive method.
  • 3 0
 @OneTrustMan: you’ve got me thinking. Decided to check the BLM mandate. It’s quite different than you propose, even if you try to read their mission as veiled with some sort of overt anti-white objective. I don’t see it.

Is this a case of people distorting the movement? Media twisting the message? Seems to be a rather strong disconnect between how some view the movement and what the founders declare as their mandate blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe

Is relativism at play? Green peace being a great example, freedom fighters or terrorists, depending on your lens)
  • 3 7
flag TheRamma (Jun 8, 2020 at 10:46) (Below Threshold)
 @OneTrustMan: Could your comment reflect racial privilege any more? The worst racists are not "race-baiting people who see racism everywhere...." They're people with power enforcing an agenda of racial superiority. You can make up shit about BLM, or point out true things about New Black Panther Party, but those groups really lack the power to oppress people the way that white supremacists in America have been able to oppress PoC. Police brutality is just the tip of the iceberg, state GOPs are repeatedly found to have racially gerrymandered (in federal court) to suppress black votes, played games with polling places, enacted poll taxes in Florida, and otherwise f*cked about with anyone who isn't white. The list goes way beyond that, but I doubt you're looking to change your mind. Might upset you pro-status quo narrative, which is the ultimate privilege.

Love the "both sides" comment, really an enlightened centrist...
  • 3 5
 @TheRamma: He's a person from the country that invented white victimhood in the 1930s, then killed millions of people in the 1940s based on fear of the "other", telling Americans that racism isn't a real thing. That's a bit much.
  • 4 2
Good job, don’t address any of his arguments, but instead attack him on his nationality. You’re just as much part of the problem.
  • 3 4
 @cvoc: I'm actually directly addressing one of his "arguments". He's claiming "that the worst racists are those race baiting people who see racism everywhere". That's a bullshit argument that comes directly from 1930s Germany, when a certain group of people, in order to defend their actions, claimed that THEY were the real victims.

But, hey, defend him if you'd like. But bear in mind that he thinks that the "worst racists are those race bating people"; I'd argue that the people who exterminated millions of Jews are worse on that score. Do you agree with him, or me on that point?

***Please note that I acknowledge that America exterminated or displaced millions of Native people, as well as owned, raped, tortured, mutilated and killed millions of African slaves. I'd put both of those on the same level as what the Nazis did. Both are far worse than "race baiting", which is the point I'm trying to make here.***
  • 4 2
Sorry, but bringing nazi Germany in this conversation is totally misplaced, regardless of what you’re trying to say. Why not start with “I dissagree with you, because...” and leave the stuff that happened 80 years ago and has nothing to do with current day Germany out of it? It really doesn’t add anything to the conversation.
  • 2 1
 @cvoc: Are you actually arguing that historical events don't shape the present? I have no problem acknowledging that the shitty stuff we did to people in the United States for several hundred years is still playing a part in what goes on today. He made an absolutely ridiculous statement about "race-baiting" being worse than any other form of racism (and you defended him). He tried to pull the victim card using a tactic developed in his country. Sorry, not having it. I'm pretty sure killing people based on the color of their skin is worse. Go jump in a nice Swiss lake.
  • 4 1
Right, you’re clearly not getting it. I’ll just stick to my original comment: you’re just as much part of the problem as the racists are.
  • 3 0

"Challenge accepted:"

Sorry if I wasn't clear. It wasn't a challenge. You had suggested that my position was there was no room for debate. That's not the case at all. Having said that I don't personally regard the tenets of any organised religion as a valid basis for such dissent. They have no consistency or agreement within themselves let alone with something like the UDHR.

But this has become a borderline metaphysical discussion on the nature of human rights. Let's get back to the crux of the matter and your original point which you have alluded to here.


The way forward? This is already how we do things, and is how a civilised society operates, but by collective consent. It doesn't hinge on the decision of an individual 'someone' unless you're suggesting we live under a bona-fide dictatorship (I'm sure you are not). Contrary to your view I think this shows we have learned, and continue to learn. The only alternative is for the transmission of all ideas - such as those which are hateful, exploitative, or inflammatory - to be completely unexamined and therefore unchecked. Not a world I want to live in, and I don't think I'm alone in that.
  • 1 0
 @rockplough: it’s worth reminding people that individual rights and freedoms being guaranteed by the state is a very new concept in our history. We’re still figuring out how to implement it effectively, and a whole lot of people pay the concept lip service but don’t actually support the idea, especially those in power who see the pie as finite and fear losing their share.
  • 5 8
Black live matter is a joke. They creates divisions more than they unite.
You can find thousands of POC saying black live matter is good and I can find thousands saying they are a scam. Your answer will be they are not representative of black community Or they are conservative, always that answer.
Mr Floyd was a long way criminal who put gun on pregnant woman. Did many years in jail. Was on heavy drug doing illegal stuff.
That have nothing to do with bike accessibility.
Pinkbike should stick to bike stuff and leave politics for other site.
People’s glorified that. Nobody deserves die like he did. Its horrible.
But its not about race. Both know each other.
Get your information at the good place.
All live matter and F off if you think im racist.
  • 1 1
 @hyouts: Good lord. You know what else matters? Grammar. Despite your abhorrent grammar, I got the gist of your comment, and you’ve completely missed the point - it’s absolutely about race. As others have pointed out, the subtext is that Black lives matter, too.

If you don’t want to read the article then treat it like an e-bike article and ignore it. But I would suggest you read it, read the comments, and try to increase your empathy for those who are less privileged than you.
  • 2 2
 @brothel: You have privileges to know English better than me, I suggest you increase your empathy for people who try learn English.
I have subtext in All live matter also.
Black live matter too.
My grammar is not perfect but my reading is good.
I have nothing against Ebike.
They don’t pretend to be what they are not.
Correct me if it make you feel better.
I will appreciated.
  • 2 0
 @hyouts: Don't worry about your English hyouts, nobody's perfect, not me either and I have been teaching it for 25 years !!!.

Please try to be empathetic.
The world has a pretty shameful history when it comes to 'respect for people from other groups'.
Maybe when you say "all lives matter" you are thinking about that truthfully; I do too. I think everyone's life is important.

But I will not use that phrase myself any more.
Why not?
Because that phrase has been used by groups of some people who do not want to believe there is any racism in societies across the world.

Even if you personally think that 'everyone's life matters equally' (as I do), please, please be understanding that, if you genuinely would like to see any ~ism stop, it is a good idea to listen to the desires of the victims of that ~ism, and stop using the phrase 'all lives matter'

Thanks for reading. Peace and have a good day Sir.
  • 1 0
 @rockplough @Mini-Pinner et al. Interesting debate, and can get infinitely complex considering how much the norms differ between cultures. It's quite easy to get lost, and even easier when we consider the good and evil as defined by a culture. But all depends on what is considered the ultimate goal. For me it's happiness, and at the very least lack of suffering of individual beings. Perspective changes when you view all your decisions from this angle.

There are also quite selfish reasons for having everyone more or less happy. Keeping a group of people underprivileged in order to keep the privileged group happy historically usually ends up in a more or less violent revolt. Someone wrote that he's frightened of the riots on the streets and therefore doesn't want to change the status quo. I'd say, it's a bit too late now. Do you think riots are caused by happy people? If you don't like riots, ensure that people don't have the reasons to riot.

Disproportions and inequalities always result in social tensions, and these are in almost no one's interest (unless you sell weapons or pitchforks and don't care about your long term security).
  • 225 9
 I've volunteered with local organizations to build and provide bikes to people of color and what I found is that the best way to get an under-privileged kid into cycling is to give him a dirt jumper/bmx/street bike. The issue for so many of these kids is access. I grew up right next to trails, but most of these kids live in urban town centers and have no parents that would ever consider driving them to mountain bike trails.

Through a local org I built up a dirt jumper for a kid here in Denver last year and by coincidence ran into him at one of our local dirt jump parks. Dude was throwing back flips, can-cans and suicides like it was nothing. The best part was that the other younger kids at the park idolized him and he was being such an awesome role model. Pretty confident in saying that his life was changed by a couple hundred bucks that somebody gave him.

I've even seen similar orgs in Philly where I went to school. We used to have hundreds of kids just ride down Broad Street stopping traffic while popping wheelies and manuals. Cops didn't even care because they knew if they were riding bikes, they weren't doing anything worse.

Maybe it's unrealistic to say that Evil, Trek, Yeti, Spesh, etc should start handing out free bikes, but look around your city to find orgs that help get kids on street bikes. Super awesome way to change a life.
  • 131 9
 Several of those brands do already do some pretty awesome outreach programs. We should probably look at highlighting some of them asap.
  • 26 3
 I hope as MTB grows, budget options get cheaper, better, and more accessible. There is so much talent in Philly, and with the Wissahickon and Belmont Plateau within city limits, hopefully one day we will have EWS or WC heavyweights coming from Philadelphia.
  • 15 1
 @4thflowkage: There is a wealth of athletic talent just waiting to be discovered in these urban centers.
  • 9 0
 Thank you! I am working on fixing up some low end bikes to hopefully sell for like 30 bucks (to cover materials cost) or donate so that I can get kids to go mountain bike. I will be learning welding in my next two years of high school, let me know if you want to partner up, I could weld frames and then take a road trip to drive a load down to you in a year or two. I cant weld yet, and I cant get my drivers license right now though, the DMV is closed.
  • 7 1
 @brokemywristbyfallingoffmybike: I work at a charity bike shop that does about the same thing. I will try my best to help out if you need me as well, even though I am only a high school junior.
  • 8 0
 This is exactly the type of story, message and action that needs to spread. It's all about seeing a need or a desire in someone you're in proximity to and providing that grassroots opportunity. That kid will tell the story of how he got into biking for the rest of his life, and it all boils down to people looking outside themselves and their immediate situation and doing something cool for another human. Great post.
  • 3 0
 @DaFreerider44: dude thanks! Im a high school sophomore, junior year i start welding
  • 4 0
 @brokemywristbyfallingoffmybike: Should we get a forum going?
  • 5 0
 Thanks for your work. This kind of effort coupled with more investment in bike parks and pumptracks seems like the avenue to expand the accessibility and appeal of the sport. I remember seeing Velosolutions video last year (?) about a pumptrack in Glasgow where a local bike shop turns out with bikes for local kids. Looks like a good template to follow to introduce people to the sport.
  • 3 0
 if anyone near Boise falls into this category and/or wants to help, these guys do a lot: www.boisebicycleproject.org/about/mission
  • 3 0
 @fullendurbro what is the organization? I live in Golden and would be stoked to help these folks out with time and money
  • 4 0
 @sspiff: Count me in too. Hoping to hear about this
  • 14 1
 Dude this is the only comment on this whole article / comment section that is actually someone making a difference. Good on you for finding a way to get more and different kids into riding and not just hammering the same hashtag phrase and expecting it to do something.
  • 14 0
 Man this is awesome, cheers to you. On a similar note, 10mo I designed a bike skills park (progressive jump line and skills area) and engaged out local trails group and Parks&Rec board. Currentlu we are almost finished now and have partner with local teacher in the Latin community to helps get more kids on bikes and bring everyone together a bit...on bikes! The nice thing about a bike skills park is that it's all about BMX/DJ for the most part..which makes the best kid riders usually. Cheap used BMX can be found (even amazon 170$ Mongoose ain't bad). Local bike donation charity (has hundreds of donated bikes) will cherry pick the decent ones, fix them up and donate them out like crazy once we get it finished. Coupled with free skills clinics and other people in the mexican community with wide reach...and we should have a gang of new kids on bikes with a SICK place to ride. All for free and local. Bikes have a place in all of this. One of the pillars of love in any relationship is doing fun stuff together. Smile
  • 6 0
 I don't know about the US but in Europe there are lots of pumptracks popping up in urban areas. They have an amazing impact as they are very accessible for everyone. You see kids, teenagers and adults from all age ranges riding their on all kinds of bikes, scooters, skateboards or skates.
  • 1 0
 Trek works heavily with Dreambikes in A number of cities teaching disadvantaged youth bike mechanic skills. Also providing low cost bikes to the community.
  • 7 0
 While everyone is commenting & arguing about 'free speech',
'1st amendment rights', 'the left' & 'the right', what PB 'should' or 'shouldn't do', 'he said'/'she said', 'they offended me', 'you're a racist', 'no, I'm not a racist, you're a SJW', this dude is actually doing something about it which is what @brianpark is trying to spark here. If we all just stop, listen & put our collective energy to focus on solutions, no matter how big or small, we can make a difference. We as the mountain bike community can show the rest of the world that we are part of the solution....#actionsnotwordsmatter
  • 1 0
 @Svinyard: Good to see a great story like the one you shared! You all keep up the good work!
  • 1 0
 @brianpark More content on what people like @fullendurbro and others are doing in their local communities wouldn't go a miss.

Also more budget bike / HT content / park / street / urban riding content.
  • 168 7
 Thank you for this, Pinkbike. It means more than you know.

Every Black mountain biker I know has experienced racism while riding. Both of my kids have. I have had to confront racist parents at races who we overheard telling their kids “I don’t care what else happens, but you better beat the black kid ...” My daughter has been questioned at trailheads about where she got her bike, how she affords it, who is she here with, etc, etc, etc. Then there is the covert racism that manifests itself through lack or representation in staffing, photos, sponsorships, and worst of all, silence about the above.

Again, Pinkbike, thank you for acknowledging that just because its not happening doesn’t mean it’s not happening. And thank you to everyone else speaking out as well.
  • 33 0
 **acknowledging that just because it’s not happening to you doesn’t mean it’s not happening**
  • 35 0
 “I don’t care what else happens, but you better beat the black kid ...” That is so insanely f*cked up, I'm sorry you have to experience that.
  • 16 0
 Thank you for sharing your experiences. Its important we all understand the reality of what goes on. It breaks my heart. I am with you. #blacklivesmatter.
  • 6 5
 You tell your kids that the whole dang internet says they're awesome! And maybe, just maybe, slash a tire or two on those parent's bikes Smile
  • 16 2
 Thanks for sharing. We've got a lot of work to do.
  • 9 0
 I wish people weren't such cowards about calling out other white people when they hear shit like this.

I'm really sorry to hear that you have to keep dealing with these things while you're trying to enjoy this pasttime. Frown
  • 8 0
 Thanks for sharing. im going to share this story to my other platforms. Great quote at the bottom.

I stand with you! #enoughisenough #blacklivesmatter
  • 5 0
 I'm glad you shared your story, as it is one that should be shared. For me, one of the best qualities about the sport is the community, and the therapeutic effects of it. I can tell you that if I ever overheard a parent saying such things at a race, I would tell my kids; "I don't care what happens, you better beat that racist", exept instead of saying racist I would use words that arent appropriate for PB.

I just have to say, that I've seen this type of thing happen before, and it hurts me that someone in this world can have so much hatred for someone who has not wronged them in the slightest. I try to confront, and call out those who say stuff like that, and hope that they listen, but I cannot be sure. To this day I cannot find a reasonable explanation for their hatred, but it is shocking.

About a year back, my aunt adopted a 7 year old from Sierra Leone. She has been living in NYC, with two white parents, who try their best to prevent her from being exposed to racisim, and after the first few weeks, she had already gotten a series of horrible comments said to her. A 7Y/O IN NYC! I could go on about this forever, but I think a lot of white folks don't understand the daily struggles of people of color.

I'm not saying we don't struggle, as many of our lives are hard, just one side has it unfairly worse, and that needs to change.
  • 188 24
 Pinkbike, thank you for standing up for what is right.
  • 161 3
 A good place to start would be looking to other minority communities. As the child of Native American and Asian parents, it always seems silly to me when I see the fervor that people approach social justice issues that impact black people and no other minorities.

In the US, natives are more likely to live in poverty, native men are more likely to killed by cops, and native women are more likely to sexually or physically assaulted than any other groups in America. Yet people are always silent, especially from the BLM community.

Growing up in New York, I was called a chink no less than 20 times, all by black people. It’s a common opinion in the US amongst Asian Americans that we experience the most racism from the black community. While this is a generalization, you’ll never see outrage when Asians are targeted by blacks (look at the dozens of cases since COVID started).
  • 42 2
 Strong points and agree often overlooking or suppressed. Racism is NOT solely experienced OR perpetuated by once race or group of people. Stay strong and rubber side down man!
  • 21 7
 I recently got introduced to some articles about how Asian people have been propped up as "model minorities" by white people, and that plays into themes that white supremacists want to maintain. Just one example article:

  • 14 5
 Thank you for this! I feel like we need a #minoritiesmatter or something else that doesn't block out everything else. Especially for native americans, they were treated horribly. We showed up, did dumb stuff, spread disease, burnt, raped, tortured, stole from, killed, and displaced millions of people, just because we thought we were smarter. Turns out, they were way ahead of us. The native americans practiced conservation of resources, ate healthy, understood sustainable agriculture, created great alliances and had complex and less discriminatory social structures, had a sense of honor, and even tried to teach us when we were starving.
  • 22 4
 It is a different kind of discrimination though. I think Hispanics and Natives face a lot of the same issues as Black people but The discrimination Asians face is quite different. Black men in particular are often viewed as threats, racist people (overt and subconsciously racist) respond with hostility. Asian people deal with the model minority stereotype, the women generally fetishized the men feminized. None of this is good but black people are the ones most likely to be killed in police custody. I think people should fight for equality of all people without bringing down others. BLM seems really important to me. Sadly you are right, there is a lot of racism between blacks and Asians, my wife tells me to be glad I can’t understand her parents Frown .
  • 19 0
 I'm South Korean, was adopted by white parents and grow-up in the suburbs up in Rochester NY. For the most part I had it pretty good but certainly understand your frustrations. I have been called derogatory terms by whites, blacks and Latino's. I also have friends that are white, black, Latino and Asian. However my experience by far has been white people being malicious in their intend. I currently live in Durango CO and have seen first hand how horribly natives are still treated/viewed, it's so disheartening. It's up to all of us regardless of race to address this problem.
  • 5 0
 Those statistics are mirrored here in Canada.
  • 16 0
 I can relate via proxy, my mother immigrated with her family from Asia to NYC as well back in the 1970s. She recalls the racism she endured from black classmates as being the absolute worst and most violent. She let the slurs like “chink” etc bounce off her, and when they picked fights with her in the schoolyard, she fought back. She’s a strong women and didn’t let those early negative experiences taint her attitudes of the entire race* however.

Racism is a mental disorder that many people of different races* suffer and direct towards many other people of different races*.

*As a mixed ‘race’ American, I personally hate that word with a passion. We are not dogs. We do not have races/breeds/whatever. We are all human.
  • 9 5
 @WRainey88: Well said sir. Sure you may get down voted (I suspect my comment will for sure), but often logic from different perspectives does. Glad you are doing you and shredding two wheels while you are at it.
  • 9 5
 @WRainey88: this guy gets it. Unity, not Division.
  • 11 3
 @WRainey88: Yes, but given the current socio-economic state of things, it is near impossible to just destroy all notions of race, and currently it is much more feasible and logical to begin by deconstructing actual barriers of social, political, and economic types so that a state where significantly less social differences between 'races' exist can be reached. Then, and I believe only then, will we truly be able to destroy the entire notion. Your idea is good, but it has a critical flaw; that perceptions and prejudices are oftentimes caused by real world situations, and, as of now, the real world is divided by races both economically and socially. This current division means that perceptions and prejudices will continue to be formed as a result of the social and economic divisions that disproportionately affect people of color and descent other than that of white europeans.
  • 18 4
 @brokemywristbyfallingoffmybike @WRainey88: No. The point of the Black Lives Matter movement relates to police brutality and the killing of unarmed black men in the United States by police. The proposition that Black Lives Matter should be so basic that we respond to it with OK at the very least and, more reasonably, deep sadness if we break down that someone felt the need to state that their life mattered because it felt like to the system's entrusted with keeping them safe it did not. As a white Canadian I have never felt the need to tell someone my life mattered. Stop trying to rewrite Black Lives Matter or alter it- if you can't agree that the life of Black Americans matter than stop and fix what is causing a reaction to such a basic statement. It's fragility that reads it as Black live's matter more than yours or anyone else's. Of course all lives matter. Of course minority lives matter. Of course my life matters. Of course indigenous populations in Canada have been subjected to horrific treatment historically and currently in Canada and the United States and we should do everything in our power to stop this and fix the harm done. But here we are after a black man had an police officer kneel on his neck for three minutes after he lost consciousness with other officers aware and standing by without a hint of showing that the man he killed mattered to him. So yeah- Black Lives Matter and it sucks it needs to be said but it does. Saying it does not mean it is more or less important than other issues of social conscience.
  • 6 3
 @brokemywristbyfallingoffmybike @WRainey88 Sorry- reading my comment over it was a bit harsh. I don't want to come across as disagreeing with the issues faced by all minority groups that you discuss or downplaying the significance of those. I agree fully on those and have done a lot of work with minority groups in my own sphere of influence including extensive work with indigenous populations experiencing suicide epidemics in Northern BC. So I agree there are many significant concerns faced by all minority and marginalized groups and we should be active in addressing those. I'm just feeling reactive to the responses that attempt to amend #blacklivesmatter because I think it is an important starting place given what has just happened and a very clear statement that we should all agree with.
  • 6 1
 @snl1200: Just got back online, no hard feelings! I understand what you're saying and I agree completely that it is an important starting place, but I would like to point out that, while not intentionally, #blacklivesmatter does somewhat eclipse other issues of equal importance, which unfortunately leads to those issues not being heard about. Cheers!
  • 4 3
 @rjdelly: which
..is hilarious
  • 4 1
 @rjdelly: that statement is used for a number of reasons, both racist and to indicate we shouldn't focus on one group (like the US tends to do), but help disprivileged groups everywhere, be it because they are black, Asian, or sometimes white (yes, rural areas are left for dead when closing hospitals and fire stations and politicians focussing on urban areas only). Start with the most dispriviliged groups (in the US black, Hispanic and native Americans): yes. Make the mistake of thinking racism is a pure whites vs blacks thing and only in one direction? No. This is going to make me very in unpopular these days, but a Maroccan girl being beaten up by her family because she is dating a white boy and her boyfriend receiving death threats is also horrible and racist. There is a lot of racism and lack of understanding between groups worldwide. I would love to focus on increasing understanding and doing things together instead of replacing white on black racism with another form (calling all whites racists, even the ones lacking the same access to decent education, healthcare and safety). #alllivesmatter would be a great slogan for that position. Too bad it is also used to downplay the real struggle lots of black people have in the US. Let me be clear on that: I do not envy black people living in poor neighborhoods with a sky high crime rate and police that are scared , tend to overreact and sometimes plain racist. I just would like to give attention to all people in disadvantaged positions.
  • 6 1
 @rjdelly: so yes,#blacklivesabsolutelymatter, but I far from agree with the narrative that's used to make them matter, increasing tensions and only making slightly racist people more racist instead of understanding and creating hate against white people. Because with all the hatred between groups, one thing seems to be very acceptable these days and that is 'whites are the cause of all struggles and you are free to hate on them'. That is disingenuous and unrespectful to all people with only love in their heart, doing their very best to make this world a better place for everyone. Unfortunately, the BLM movement seems to often price awareness above all other things, including understanding and building bridges.
  • 4 2
 @brokemywristbyfallingoffmybike: My cities local BLM rally had 50/50 black and indigenous speakers. Both groups face similar systemic issues so it was nice to see the groups work together. Canadians are often described as nice internationally, but we have committed tons of atrocities towards minority groups. We need to do better. #blacklivesmatter #redlivesmatter
  • 4 0
 @brokemywristbyfallingoffmybike: while I understand your point, poor white people in rural areas without access to decent education and healthcare are not helped by that stance in the least. Helping all disadvantaged people based on situation instead of race might be better. Because more black people black people are disadvantaged, they should receive more help on average. But really, let's not focus on race but position. Improve people's position and stop focussing on race. If someone still bases their attitude towards people based on race, call them out.
  • 3 2
 Were Asians kept as slaves or victims of segregation in the US? Genuine question as I am uneducated and curious. If not then I would guess that may have something to do with the focus of the movement on one particular ethnic group.
  • 2 0
 @johnnyboy11000: not so much like African americans, but lots of Chinese were brought over and forced to do labor through indentured servitude, and then were run off or segregated from whites when the job was done.
  • 3 0
 @johnnyboy11000: yes, beginning of 19th century as America expanded West
  • 17 8
 I think it's important to remember that no race has a monopoly on suffering, and that everyone has their own struggles.

That said, the current protest movement is an expression of grief and anger, and responses of "but what about X race" or "I've suffered too" are insensitive and unhelpful. They get internalized as minimizing someone else's pain. When someone is grieving after their child passes away, nobody stands up and goes "well children die every day, we should save all children everywhere not just yours." Like, it's true that we should save the lives of all children everywhere, but to the grieving parent that's a pretty despicable thing to say in this moment.
  • 11 1
 @brianpark: with regards to the subject of this post, I’m addressing the disparity in concern for other minorities, especially since no one has a monopoly on suffering

The lack of care for issues that run parallel to those of BLM that are disregarded by this and other media outlets because they’re not on trend is thinly veiled racism, in my most humble, brown opinion
  • 3 0
 @johnnyboy11000: I see that you’re ignoring my mention of natives. How convenient, because everyone is doing it.
  • 3 6
 The BLM movement exploded due to police killings of unarmed black people. I don't doubt that this has happened to native Americans and Asian people, but I think the killing of black people has been on a whole different level in the last decade or so.
  • 14 0
 @jayacheess: Native American men are killed by police at a higher rate than any other group in America. Native American erasure is real. The total population is small, many live on reservations, and have been fetishized. It’s easy to ignore what happens to natives, especially when the US and Canada rely on the myth of the brave cowboys slaughtering the hostile natives in order to justify the purity of their existence
  • 6 5
 @FrancoisXXX69: Again, I don't doubt this is happening, and it shouldn't be diminished. But this whatboutism is detracting from the point of the movement. A rising tide lifts all boats, as they say. The BLM movement is advocating for an end to all forms of systemic racism, and a reforming of policing policies across the country. That will have positive effects on all affected minority groups.
  • 6 4
 @jayacheess: no it’s not it is interested in 1 race. It’s arguably a racist organisation in its own right
  • 6 1
 @CM999: I have the feeling they are interested in other groups as long as those groups can increase BLM support. If there will ever be a race or grouo issue that's not on their agenda (like poor, undereducated, jobless and unsupported people in rural areas), they won't give a rats behind. That's nothing different from most lobby and protest groups though.
  • 8 5
 @CM999: That's just complete right-wing nonsense. People who have a stake in vilifying BLM and discrediting it to keep the status-quo.

Please explain to me how reforming policing policies would only help black people?
  • 5 9
flag dr-giggles (Jun 7, 2020 at 21:03) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: Park, i'm sorry but native american POC rank above african americans on the intersectional totem pole. Spare us your whitesplaining and stop asking marginalized native americans to handle your emotional labor on this matter.
  • 3 2
 @dr-giggles: What are you even talking about? How did you get that out of his reply?
  • 5 0
 It is a very common policing method in America to pit one group of people against another. That is a part of the "systemic" part of the racism.
  • 3 0
 @JayUpNorth: we dont call natives red. They arent red. And redskin is a slur, so lets stick to calling them natives or indigenous peoples. Cheers!
  • 2 0
 @johnnyboy11000: yup, especially as victims of segregation. They have been discriminated against horribly since the birth of our country, and if you want a famous example of a slightly more recent case, look into the japanese internment camps during world war two.
  • 1 0
 Just following back up to see if anyone is just as outraged about the murder of Bernell Trammell.


  • 1 0
 @thustlewhumber: I haven't heard of Bernell Trammel, will check it out.
  • 1 0
 @thustlewhumber: Just read about it, that's horrible.
  • 1 0
 @thustlewhumber: Not really a shortage of murders to be outraged about. Just a shortage of information.
  • 2 0
 @JSTootell: Wish there was a shortage of murders.
  • 185 32
 PLEASE before commenting: if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it.
  • 47 18
 Easy to do when you’re talking about riding, but not when you’re talking about the mass incarceration and police brutality problems in the US
  • 13 14
 This needs to be upvoted to top comment just for awareness.
  • 6 6
 I'll rephrase this in a playful manner. Submit to the wokester outrage mobs or be banned from all areas of public life.
  • 1 0
 @dr-giggles: I had to upvote this just because its funny
  • 1 0
 Maybe not 'nice' so much as 'considerate'. The world is not at all nice, but it doesn't need to be full of hate, either.
  • 145 1
 I’m a black mountain biker. One of Very very few. I truly appreciate this post. I’ll keep it that simple although I could write a 1000 words on this topic. Thank you. Sincerely.
  • 13 2
 i'd actually like to hear some of ur thoughts. i have yet to hear another mtb'er make any negative comments about the black mtb'ers on rides or at races, but it obviously happens. i wonder if that is mostly due to locale, or just peeps keeping their stupid comments to themselves.
  • 12 2
 Want to? DM me.
  • 4 0
 I would too be intrested in talking if you would be up for that.
  • 1 0
 @JacobyDH: Send me a message!
  • 89 6
 Thanks, Brian, Sarah and PB. For those who didn't see it, please watch Eliot Jackson's IG from a couple of days ago: www.instagram.com/tv/CA8vs4xJTbq (thanks @yesimaddicted for posting to the forums)
  • 4 0
 thanks @geephlow for sharing the link.
  • 7 2
 How is this being downvoted? Like, can we just IP ban some of these people from pinkbike altogether?
  • 84 8
 Thank for highlighting the effects of generational wealth. My grandparents are rich, white, and privileged. In turn, their kids became rich and privileged. In turn, I became rich and privileged. My kids are now rich and privileged and will probably have rich, privileged kids of their own.

Slavery has been outlawed in our country for a minority of our history. Many of our parents were born before civil rights! What if my grandparents and parents were prevented from owning anything, prevented from having a good education, and treated as lesser human beings for their entire lives? Where would I be right now?

I know some people are able to bootstrap their way into success from hard upbringings, but the vast majority of rich and privileged people got there by having rich and privileged parents and grandparents (like me). Please think about how fair that is, and where you'd be without rich, privileged people supporting you.
  • 33 12
 There's a great little explainer on Netflix that breaks down generational wealth. A good 15 minute watch if anyone is interested.
  • 86 3
 Well, I come from a poor country. My grandfather told me they had 1 pair of shoes for 3 kids after the war, because his father died in German labour camp and mother could hardly earn anything.. We got zero money after the war, Germany got Marshall's plan. I just want to say that the world is not fair, never was and will never be. The whole model of life is simply surrealistic. Actors, singers, players earning more money they can spend, engineers earning much less. We could go on forever.
The problem of the poor not being able to get into MTB in US is, well, is on the 100th place of vital humanity problems. And still poor people in US probably earn more money than me, not to mention really poor people in Africa who are dying of hunger.
I really understand #blacklivesmatter, but I can hardly see any connection to bike industry.
Maybe next time PB, when you get another $10k bike which basically rides like a $3k bike, give it a little thought.
Just my 2c, hope no one will feel offended, cause it was not my intention.
  • 14 1
 @lkubica: Good post. I think the connection to the bike industry, is that we need to examine racism/prejudice in whatever corner of life we belong to. We are mountain bikers, so we examine it in mountain biking (amongst other areas of our lives too probably) and try to make change in mountain biking.

Change needs to happen everywhere, so where we can make change, we should, even if it's not what some would consider hugely influential compared to other areas.
  • 14 25
flag Zimbaboi (Jun 5, 2020 at 12:45) (Below Threshold)
 @brianpark: isnt generational wealth the definition of the American Dream though? Like certainly low income communities have a difficult time getting into a sport that requires money, but is that really a race issue? Why are we demonizing the American dream to earn as much and live as large as we can? Certainly we should give and give and be charitable to lift others up while we pull ourselves up from our bootstraps, but phrasing “not having enough money” as a race issue is just kind of false....particularly when there are a higher number of broke white people in America then colored. Truthfully I think we’re confusing a class issue with a race one. And while we should do everything in our power to uplift and help those stuck in a rut, i dont think thats the mountain bikes communities place to fix the issue...Americans have been taught to buy with money we dont have and not to save anything. I think we should start there with money education and move forward from there.
  • 26 7
 @Zimbaboi: I'm Canadian but there's nothing inherently wrong with generational wealth. Just that some groups of people have a 300+ year head start in amassing it. It's nobody's fault who is alive today, but it's unjust and we all have a responsibility to try to change it.

Seriously, take 15 minutes to watch that little Netflix piece if you ever get the chance. It's more eloquent than I am.
  • 8 6
 @Zimbaboi: you can call it that if you want, and then we can talk about how unequal access is to the "American Dream" for people of color.
  • 9 3
 This this this. I highly recommend anyone looking for meaningful change on this front to deep dive into UBI. One of those ideas that is outlandish at first glance but absolutely necessary and trans-formative once you understand just how much of a floor this will give everyone. Especially those not born into privilege. Lot's of folks fighting for this right now if wanting to get involved.

  • 3 0
 @brianpark: Is there a way to post a list of links to explainers etc? Coud start with the Netflix piece and "Becoming Ruby" and expand as needed.
  • 5 10
flag NebulousNate (Jun 5, 2020 at 13:26) (Below Threshold)
 @rickybobby18: you can always argue that unequal outcome must mean inequality but that doesn't mean the facts say its true...
  • 9 1
 @dolface: yep, an educational resource is a great idea. I want to think most of the MTB community is open to learning and and challenging their beliefs.
  • 9 3
 @NebulousNate: how the f can you say a people group that only recently (generationally/historically speaking) emerged from full-on slavery and denial of ownership and education is on equal footing?!
  • 3 0
 @Zimbaboi: do you mean a higher number of broke white people or a higher percentage? Because clearly there is going to be a higher number of broke white people when people of colour only make up 20% of the USA population...
  • 1 3
 Well said. I agree. @lkubica:
  • 8 5
 @brianpark: I don't know that I'd agree there's nothing inherently wrong with generational wealth in any society with disparate classes. Growing up with increased access to education, nutrition, heallthcare, etc. is privilege enough. Generational wealth nullifies both the entire concept of meritocracy and the idea that we should raise the floor to a level which takes care of everyone's basic needs; 90%+ estate taxes all around!
  • 5 7
 @rickybobby18: with affirmative action and other things in place like people being able to obtain scholarships solely based on the fact that they're part of a minority population I feel like people have the opportunity to be on equal footing with anybody else. You sure seem passionate about this situation so tell me, whats your solution?
  • 4 4
 @NebulousNate: this is a decent illustration of equality vs equity vs justice. It's overly simplified, but was helpful to me. imgur.com/xihtpak
  • 76 3
 As a black mountain biker, I feel uniquely positioned to comment on this and I feel this is certainly the time to make my voice heard. 

First and foremost, it needs to be said that it’s never too late for this conversation to come to the fore and I’m very glad to see it taking place on what is probably the most well established nexus point for mountain bikers worldwide. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I’ve been mountain biking for a little over 23 years and the fact that the number of encounters with black mountain bikers that I’ve had in all of those years can be counted on one hand (three to be precise) has always left me questioning my place in this sport. 

My personal experiences with the wider mtb community have on the whole been generally positive across the years. Whilst I do usually feel welcome out on the trails, it is still always somewhat daunting to turn up to a bike park, trail centre or trail head knowing that I absolutely will draw more attention than your usual mtb’er. Now I’ve heard the tired argument that this is a “me” problem, rather than a “you” problem over and over again and whilst I would be inclined to agree if this attention always came from a good place or general curiosity, sadly, that has not always been so. In circumstances where I’ve been greeted with outright suspicion, I always try to reflect post event and question whether I did anything wrong or otherwise to evoke a negative reaction to my presence. The saddening conclusion though is all too often that the only differentiating factor between me and those around me was simply the colour of my skin.

I should probably draw some perspective here though and say that on the whole, I feel that being black is less of a deciding factor in how I am treated when out on the trails than it is in other social situations such as going shopping, using public transport, encounters law enforcement, international travel and at work. What I’m trying to say is that whilst there’s definitely room for improvement in the mtb world, it’s far from being an unwelcome sport.

To those of you asking whether Pinkbike has a role in discussing race - the answer is yes it absolutely does. This is a societal problem that everyone has a place in addressing and it isn’t going to go away until everyone acknowledges it. If as a non-black (or any other under-represented minority for that matter) person you disagree with this, consider the fact that up until now, you’ve had the luxury of choosing when you wished to ignore issues of race; this is not a privilege that all of us have been fortunate enough to share. Put simply, I have to live with my skin colour and I can’t simply turn it off or look the other way when it isn’t working to my benefit. If this community can take the time to make sure that it does its part to challenge racism and unconscious bias, the effects of that don’t just stay within PB - the reach of the message is amplified whenever PB members have those same conversations outside of their mtb’ing peer group circles.

On a more positive note though, it is fantastic to see that Pinkbike are not just paying lip service to the cause and do intend to make very real changes going forward. It’s also very reassuring to see mtb brands such as Specialized, Santa Cruz and Forbidden making very public stands with their positions on current events and racism when they could just choose to turn a blind eye and bet on this all blowing over. Whilst some have criticised their timing and sincerity, from this black person’s point of view, the very fact that they’re making such public statements on a such divisive issues, knowing the potential risks that come with doing so shows a commitment from them to be part of a better future. One that includes people like me. I therefore have nothing short of utter gratitude towards them, Pinkbike and all of the inclusive and open minded members on here.

I’m going to close by echoing others comments and suggesting that everyone takes the time to look up Eliot Jackson’s video message. He offers a unique perspective from a top WC level that deserves to be heard if you haven’t already done so.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far!
  • 5 1
 Good message, thank you for your perspective.
  • 6 1
 Really well said mate.
  • 6 1
 Great input, thanks for taking the time to type that up. I also checked out Eliot Jackson's video, as you mentioned. Definitely worth a watch.
  • 3 1
 Thank you for weighing in arna86. Your perspective and time are much appreciated.
  • 54 8
 Damn, very well said Brian. No need to apologize for taking time to reflect, its something that we all should be doing. Thinking about how one can change their own actions and biases is what this movement is all about, not just posting black squares on instagram.
  • 43 1
 Outstanding. Thank you PB. As an immigrant and now proud Canadian, coming here 19 years ago from Zimbabwe and falling in love with mountain biking has been an interesting journey. I’ve been looked at sideways going into bike shops or completely ignored and even had the not so pleasant experience of being followed around stores like I was there to steal or something (Hard to explain to my kids who are white as to why we are being followed around the store) I’ve been into stores with my brother in law and that’s been the only time I’ve even been acknowledged bcoz I was with a white guy. It’s not an easily accessible sport, I’m sure I may be the only guy of color at the trailhead for a while but I’d love to see more people of color on the trails. The greater social issue is one that needs to be addressed. 19 years in Canada and the racism I’ve experienced has the guys at the Bike shop I now work at dumbfounded
  • 7 1
 And I must say. If I can do anything to help pinkbike in their efforts to brake down these barriers, sign me up, I’m on board.
  • 41 1
 Real relief to scroll through comments and see the vast majority of them positive. Thanks PB!
  • 42 2
 Leaving comment section open. Bold strategy, Cotton.
  • 32 3
 We are either about to be impressed by the PB community, or thoroughly disappointed.
  • 24 75
flag chasejj (Jun 5, 2020 at 9:45) (Below Threshold)
 @4thflowkage: The echo chamber is deafening.
  • 8 0
 they had to do and I'm glad they did. Because not doing so is kind of like saying "we know there is a problem but we don't want to discuss it"
  • 41 18
 @chasejj: I bet you say that all the time. Usually with other epic right-wing racist put-downs such as . . . . .

TRIGGERED - Even when nobody has been 'triggered'

VIRTUE SIGNALLING - Always used incorrectly as well

SJW - As if wanting justice is a bad thing?! Isn't that part of 'the american way', chase?

SNOWLFAKE - Without realising the immense irony

You seem like the kind of person who thinks Tyler Durden is cool.
  • 11 3
 @mgolder: there’s a certain poster here who regularly uses those terms like he’s being edgy or some shit, when it actually comes off as pathetic to me.
  • 1 2
 @mgolder: you forgot the word RACIST in your list of put-downs. Never mind, that’s a left-wing term.
  • 40 4
 As a PB visitor "of color", let me drop some words here too. First of all, I always thought the words "white" and "black" have always been a bit, well, black and white. And considering how Muslims and Chinese (who, by skin tone are typically right in the middle) have been subject to discrimination too over the course of the past decades. In the comment section of this website too. Possibly more so than people with darker skin. Sure I get that in the greatest country on earth, land of the free etc, some groups (including some of those who are to serve and protect) tend to abuse and kill those with African roots. If something like that happens, even bringing those officers to justice seems like a poor act of covering things up as the root lies much deeper. "Justice" doesn't solve that. Find where the hatred stems from and solve that. Therapy, group sessions, illegal hippie shit, whatever it takes. But sending officers to jail for pushing things too far, based on a hatred they may have been raised with doesn't solve anything. It merely sends the signal that expressing that hatred is being frowned upon, but it doesn't solve the hatred.

But back to the cycling world, to be honest I see no harm in the way it has developed. It wasn't intended to be a white male dominated scene. It just turned out this way. It takes a good bit of money to get into the sport. Especially for a kid who doesn't just break stuff, but also outgrows it. This isn't exclusive to cycling, but also to other sports and also to arts (like playing musical instruments). But it isn't intentional. Those big brands we have now have all been small, excited to see their business and the scene grow. They weren't in the position to do charity back then. Back in the days as I kid I would have loved a BMX too but these just were too expensive. Later as a teen I was spending half the money I made (delivering newspapers) on keeping my own bike rolling. No way I would have been able to afford a BMX or MTB (and ride it in the way it was intended). Only much later as a student I bought my first MTB, joined a group and got hooked. So sure, if the money was there I would have started earlier. But as it wasn't, I just started later. But I never blamed this on anything or anyone. The money just wasn't there. That's no blaming matter.

As things are now, I think BMX and MTB are getting more accessible to more people. More trails mean you don't need a car to get to some trails to ride. And more good pumptracks in urban areas make the latest drivetrain and suspension nonsense obsolete, just basic skills for everyone to learn who has got access to a half decent set of wheels. So if there is one company making riding more inclusive, I'd give that award to Velosolutions.

As for role models, I get that these can be inspirations. But if you're looking for similarities to yourself, you're looking at the wrong aspects. Why? Did these actual role models have that too? Which white male would Wade Simmons have been looking up to? Was he even? Or was he just shredding it for the love of it. Pick your role models based on what they do, not who they are on the outside. I've been rooting for Anneke Beerten ever since she was riding for BeOne. Because she's been working so hard following her own path and performing great doing so. I love both Matt Hunter as well as Hannah Barnes for so clearly loving what they do. Ryan Leech for being so skilled, friendly, positive and constructive. Picking role models and inspirations merely for being the same color and/or same sex as you is so limited. You'll be missing out on so many opportunities of being inspired, why should you? I'm a death metal (music) fan ever since I was 13 or so. Good luck extracting "black" role models from that scene. Chuck Schuldiner has always been my greatest inspiration. Sure he doesn't have the same skin color but when I listen to his music it is exactly how I feel. Surely that matters more than skin tone.

So on one side I'm not necessarily against the way the cycling scene as it is as it hasn't evolved into this because of bad intentions. And (as a "black" guy) have never felt unwelcome. But I get that just as us blokes feel a company feels more fun as it becomes more diverse (that is, when more ladies join, clearly enjoy riding and take ownership over their own development as riders), "white" people may also feel better when people from different cultures (or at least with different colors) join. Not sure if that's the case as I haven't been on that side of the fence obviously. But if that's the goal the sure, go for it. But don't feel bad for it being as it is. Again, I think the best thing that could make riding bikes properly more accessible would be to have more public Velosolution tracks everywhere. They're inclusive as can be. Kids can develop proper skills on whatever gear they own and if they really love it, they'll get their own mountainbike eventually.
  • 4 2
 Wish more people would actually read this one
  • 5 1
 It's getting tough to follow the thread because there's so many comments, and some of the more relevant stuff is slipping towards the bottom! But THIS is exactly what we need to be seeing: the opinions and experiences of black riders, how do they see the sport and why don't more get involved? I worry that it might be patronising to actively try to get more black people involved in the sport, so how is that viewed? I think Pinkbike need to reach out to black riders and do a piece about their experiences and why they think more black people don't take up the sport. It's an awkward subject for a lot of white people, and a media organisation like Pinkbike could really help get this conversation started!
  • 3 1
 Thanks for writing this, it's a great perspective and was really interesting to read. Would love to know who and why they down voted this comment.
  • 3 2
 @Van-kiwi: You can't change a mistaken down-vote,, so let's hope that's what happened. There are a few seriously backwards thinkers on PB, however.
  • 7 1
 Yeah, but it is good to realize that this is an international community. People post from all over the world. As it seems, the issue is huge in the United States. I live in The Netherlands. Very few (if any) Afro American originally immigrated in America by free will. And they weren't free when they got there. Heck, it must have been until the 70's somewhere until the last discrimatory laws were lifted. Which implies that still many people who live there now were raised with such laws in effect. So yeah, it is in people's minds and behavior. It doesn't just go away that quickly, it seems. Sure there is discrimiation in other countries too, hence the worldwide resonance. But I've got to say I was personally never affected. Maybe there have been little issues but nothing you can't laugh over. Once you can laugh about it, it isn't such a big deal. I can make jokes about my color as much as a blonde girl can make jokes about "being a silly blonde" after making a mistake. It is all cool. In fact there haven't been racist laws in effect here for over a century, but there have been laws discriminating women and homosexuals which have been lifted much more recently. Homosexuals were only allowed to marry since the 90's or so. And a women couldn't sue her husband for rape until a couple of decades ago. It's insane! And as a heterosexual male it always bothered me much more than those few isolated cases of racism. It's probably the same feeling "white" people have when they see the racial injustice happen.

After growing up as a teen in the nineties it seemed like everything was getting well. Berlin wall down, Nelson Mandela free, cold war finished, the future looked bright. The war in Yugoslavia sure was a shock with polarization as if it were the WOII again. But it also resolved during those same 90's. Then suddenly, 9/11. I'm an atheist so I don't care about religion but the sudden discrimination of muslims kinda struck me as "we're back to zero". And Chuck Schuldiner died that same year so it felt like there was no one left with some sanity to put things straight. Or well, that's how my head worked back then Wink .

So yeah from my "armchair" perspective: racism is a huge issue, but it isn't necessarily bigger than other issues I'm seeing and which aren't getting the attention they deserve. Racism is bad but luckily I haven't seen anyone saying it is good. Whereas when the US tried to legalize gay marriage, there were indeed people there, holding bibles and trying to hold it back. And who the hell was even holding back equal rights for women back in the days (and in loads of places even still nowadays)? Somehow that's stuff that worries me much, much more.

On one hand I could join the parade out of solidarity with what's happened in the US. Yet at the same time it would feel unfair. As if I were saying I've been treated poorly by the "whites". I haven't. I've never felt an outsider, never felt treated differently. My girlfriend is white (we have to daughters), my brother's girlfriend is white (they have three sons), everything is all good and tolerant down here. Tolerant enough to make jokes about hair color, skin color, sex, sexuality, music taste, anything. Being different shouldn't be a taboo.
  • 1 0
 Thank you for your perspective- I really agree with your point about the community pumptracks creating a low barrier entry to the sport of biking. Even the economically disadvantaged youth often have inexpensive bmx bikes or scooters and can share bikes around. I'm trying to get one built in my community with the hope that it can be an inclusive, accessible space for all our kids.
  • 1 1
 @vinay: ”...Tolerant enough to make jokes about hair color, skin color, sex, sexuality, music taste, anything. Being different shouldn't be a taboo.“
Well said! That's what I miss sometimes these days - tolerance.
  • 1 0
 @vinay I did not want to engage with this dumpster fire of an article, but I feel compelled to say that I have appreciated much of your contributions to pb articles, be they down, or up voted.

Cheers mate.
  • 4 1
 Thanks all. Yeah sometimes I wouldn't mind having Jacinda Ardern as our worldwide dictator. Wherever we've seen bad stuff happen, the tone in many countries was typically "now we're at war with...", "we're gonna track them down and ...", "we won't rest until justice has been done" etc. Their solution appears to be blaming someone. There is the joke about the American family whose car broke down in the middle of the desert, with only water for a single day. The father said: "Alright, before we do anything, we need to sit down and find out who's to blame."

After the Christchurch shootings, Ardern basically said something along the lines of "Stay together, take care of each other, talk. Don't let this individual fracture our great community." Now, I'm not here to debate Trump. But ideally you'd like the president to say "This problem is bigger and deeper than we thought, in the police system we're all supposed to trust and rely on. Send us your stories, your experiences (good and bad) so that we can find out how big the problem really is. Based on that we will improve our transparency and review our training so that the system will perform the way all our citizens deserve." Everyone will feel heard and it won't hurt anyone. You've got a fair chance the police system will actually cooperate. Heavily reprimanding officers when getting caught red handed doing something that's ingrained in the system anyway will only reduce transparency and won't solve anything. Just like a bully in a classroom. You don't solve the issue punishing the bully and/or his/her sidekicks when they get caught. Instead the bully is likely insecure (typically bullied too in the past) and needs help, support and something constructive to do. Heck, look at the history of those officers who crossed the line like this, look at the history of those who committed a mass shooting (Pearl Jam recently released the uncensored video of their Jeremy tune, also watch the classic Full Metal Jacket movie), they've often had a history at the receiving end of being bullied. So yeah, solve that. Give therapy to those who need that. It will improve matters more than sending those few individuals to jail for a decade or more.
  • 41 2
 Thank you Brian and Pinkbike. Well said.
  • 40 5
 I've been awaiting a PB response. I appreciate the tone you are all setting. What we're seeing doesn't feel like corporate/white guilt, but rather people using their position of power to say something is wrong. Right on.
  • 36 4
 THIS is the MLK quote of moment for me. The "All Lives Matter" distraction is quietly rooted in the opposite of this.

  • 11 5
 The All Lives Matter movement is a play on the politically correct rule of thumb that you have to listen to and accept everyone. It's a card drawn by people who are against acceptance to confuse people on the other side. It's the same with the white rights and men's rights movements. It is deceptive bullsh*t is what it is. It's hatred masquerading as "what about my opinion too?". The sooner we stop "listening to and accepting" those voices, the better off we'll all be. The more we tolerate those voices existing in the spotlight, the more people who have those opinions realise "hey, I can be an *sshole and get away with it too". It's a snowball.
  • 4 3
 @KxPop: The more you say stuff like this, the louder those voices will get.
  • 11 6
 @gally-nh: The more you accept the polite racism the more the outrageous racism gets away with it. How do you think we ended up with people like Donald Trump blatantly walking around in broad daylight?
  • 5 7
 @KxPop: Donald Trump being elected was the reaction to the kind of thought process you're promoting. And don't get it twisted, I'm not saying "polite racism" is ok, or any racism for that matter. But the problem is many people got sick and tired of getting shut down, drowned out etc. because they didn't have popular (left leaning) political opinions which were all too often labeled racist, when they weren't.
  • 4 11
flag clink83 (Jun 7, 2020 at 11:43) (Below Threshold)
 @gally-nh: Donald Trump was elected because of angry white men, and people voting for third party candidates.
  • 9 3
 @clink83: No, he got elected by uneducated men and women that have a hard time with nuance, but felt marginalized in a few key areas in this country. His rise to popularity and the way he was able to exploit the opportunity was in part due to the thought process Kx was promoting. That's my only point. I didn't vote for the guy, but I'm not blind either.
  • 6 3
 @gally-nh: There's a lot more to it than that, but I'd be willing to bet all of my money you're right about the "uneducated" part. While Trump is an idiot, the strategy that got him elected was brilliant in an evil way.

Also, Kx is generally correct, BLM isn't BLM To The Exclusion Of All Others, it's quite obviously BLM too, as in BLM as much as any other, as in everyone's life matters equally. The people who assume the former are being jerks.
  • 45 14
 I've been visiting Pinkbike on the daily, probably not healthy, for over 10+ years and for the first time ever I started to consider stopping my daily visits because the lack of acknowledgement regarding the BLM movement and how it relates to the MTB community. Thank you for finally sharing how Pinkbike as a company feels and for taking a clear stance.
  • 5 9
flag dr-giggles (Jun 7, 2020 at 20:56) (Below Threshold)
 So you think every sport and community activity that brings people together should have a shrill political ideology imposed on it and anyone who doesn't submit to it should be punished and shunned?

I recommend looking at the history of Maoist struggle sessions in communist China if you want to see your ideology reaching its logical conclusion.

The folks running this site, like most other companies, are doing this because they are afraid of an extremely intolerant minority attacking them and harming their business model of reviewing plastic bikes made in Chinese sweatshops. That's all.
  • 2 1
 @dr-giggles: No. I don't even think it's political ideology in any way at all, so with that i'm not going to bother exploring your comparison to a struggle session.

The folks running this site where clear about the why and it has nothing to do with plastic bikes made in China.

It's not a political movement, but in the USA where politics is everything these days i'm sure it's easy for one to assume as such.
  • 37 8
 Fact - we enslaved African Americans
Fact - we segregated African Americans
Fact - we bred violence into their community through slavery and segregation
Fact - we have a crime issue
Fact - we have a police brutality issue

Solution - education, education, education!!!! For everyone not just the black community. I think funding education into the community through collegiate sports could be a solution. The money earned through collegiate sports, literally comes from a lot of these community’s that need more resources.
  • 24 62
flag WalrusRider (Jun 5, 2020 at 10:56) (Below Threshold)
 Only thing I don't think is necessarily fact is stating that we have a police brutality issue. Approximately 1000 people die at the hands of police every year in the USA. The victims are overwhelmingly armed with guns or other weapons. No doubt, some of these deaths are not justified. When you consider the millions of interactions with police annually, it's an incredibly small number of deaths. Ten times as many people die from falling out of bed. Forty times as many people commit suicide every year than are killed by police. I think the police brutality issue is essentially a myth when you actually examine the statistics.
  • 16 7
 @WalrusRider: www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/05/buffalo-officers-suspended-shoving-man
Nope, no police brutality exists. You have to be willingly not watching any social media of cops beating the f*ck out of people peacefully protesting to believe that its not a problem.
  • 12 24
flag WalrusRider (Jun 5, 2020 at 11:14) (Below Threshold)
 @clink83: No where did I say police brutality doesn't exist. I specifically addressed police-caused deaths. Which is one of the primary things being protested at the moment.
  • 23 6
 @WalrusRider: That couldn't be farther from the truth. Police escalation resulting in death is just the tipping point. Have you not noticed all of the black adults coming forward in the media with stories about how them and their friends have been accosted by the police while doing absolutely nothing wrong? They seem to on average have at least a dozen stories of things like getting pulled over in a routine traffic stop with the cop instantly screaming at them, or being walking down an alley and having a gun pulled on them.

As a white man, granted living in Canada where I at least hope things are a little bit less bad, never once have I been concerned that a police officer would harass me for no reason. If an officer was out of line and violating my rights I would 100% feel comfortable pointing that out to them. The endless stories from black Americans where they feel like so much as opening their mouth to a police officer will literally get them shot in the head should be shocking to you.

You need to realize that their experience is so far removed from anything you could possibly relate to that you simply can't understand how bad it is. Anyone who says that police are just enforcing the rule of law don't seem to appreciate that it's only the rule of law if everyone is treated equally. If a specific segment is targeted by that law enforcement it is tyranny. How long do you expect people to live under tyranny and just accept it? This is why people are protesting.
  • 13 5
 @WalrusRider: I have a different opinion. In the USA the police are an armed militarized gang. We hear about the tip of the abuse iceberg, so the statistics are about as valuable as Covid-19 stats were in March. The statistic for unjustified police homicide can only have one acceptable value: ZERO. We all accept the Police as a fact of life in our 'civilization'. Truth is, the concept is a fairly recent invention. What was their original purpose in the US South? Capture runaway slaves. What are they doing now? Still protecting property for the rich and keeping the poor 'in their place'. For many that place is the for-profit US Prison System.
  • 6 3
 @WalrusRider: I totally understand your point of view Bro. I think for the most
Part cops get a very bad rap. They have a crazy tough job and I hope it’s not lost in all this.. However it’s bigger than that, if we care for the human race we have to help and educate communities. What played out in the streets (everything) was extremely eye opening.
  • 12 1
 @WalrusRider: you conclude your statement with "I think the police brutality issue is essentially a myth when you actually examine the statistics." You clearly haven't looked up the stats, hence you saying "I think" So let me enlighten you. I found an article from a couple years back on Forbes.com about a scientific study compiled from US police stats, published in the journal Injury Prevention, a journal published by the British Medical Journal, which has impeccable reputation for cutting edge peer reviewed research. I'll include links below so you can double check their legitimacy. But for now let me post some spicy stats up in here. Unlike you thinking you know something, I actually went and looked it up. And awwwway we go...

-Every day police officers kill 3 people and injure 150 that need medical treatment at a hospital

-1 out of every 13 people killed by a firearm in the U.S., intentionally or unintentionally, were killed by a police officer.

-1 in 11 people killed by firearms in all homicides and law enforcement legal interventions combined were killed by the police. That’s 9% of all gun-related homicides and legal interventions.

-1 in 11 people who die from law enforcement interactions were unarmed.

-Out of all homicides for all ages and races resulting from any form of assault, with any weapon, 1 in 15 people, or 6.5%, die as a result of a police interaction.

-Of all injuries leading to an emergency department visit or hospitalization, for all people of all ages, 1 in 30 is inflicted by the police. That’s 3.3% of all injuries requiring medical attention.

yes, you read that correctly


of course this data is open to some bit of interpretation and i'm sure that there are some methodological holes in it somewhere, but as for now I haven't seen a better study on the matter. Cheers, and here's to being more open minded, and maybe using the resources available to every one of us here. Remember, this is the information age. You can find out the answer to just about anything if you take the time to look.


  • 7 3
 @lognar: the actual peer reviewed data about police brutality, and police brutality against minors, is staggering. Racist conservatives don't care about data.
  • 33 4
"there are a higher number of broke white people in America then colored."
- There are more broke white people in America than colored because they are more white people. The proportion is much higher among minorities.

"I don't think thats the mountain bikes communities place to fix the issue"
-It's every communities place to fix the issue.

"Why demonize the American Dream?"
We aren't demonizing the American Dream or generational wealth, we are pointing out that it is more/only accessible to certain people.

"Taught to buy with money we don't have and not to save anything"
-Yes, financial education across the board would be beneficial. However, minorities are certainly capable of math but it's hard to make the numbers add up when it's harder to get quality education, harder to own a home, harder to get a loan, harder to get a job, harder to get quality food and healthcare, harder to get transportation, harder to go for a jog...I'd like to see you pull yourselves out of that rut by your bootstraps.

It may not be entirely your fault that you just made a very racist comment on Pinkbike. I clicked on your profile and see your from a small town in Idaho. I'm from a small town in rural California and something we probably both shared in our childhood is isolation. I'm willing to bet your town, like mine, is vast majority white, which isn't your fault, but it left us both ignorant. If you didn't grow up in a multicultural area you probably haven't seen the effects of systemic racism, but it's past time for us to address, learn, and work for change.
  • 1 4
 Idaho has >1% black population, lots of right wing white supremacy, and Rexburg is heavily LDS, which has a fairly long history of white supremacy in the church itself.
  • 27 0
 Hi Pinkbike community,

As a 100% African who lives in Europe (Switzerland), I would like to briefly share my opinion on this topic. I am originally from Africa and grew up here in Switzerland. From my perspective there is racism everywhere. Especially where there are not many foreigners. However, when I was mountain biking, I never felt that I was being treated racistly. Rather the opposite, especially white people wanted to know why and since when I've been doing this sport. I got to know a lot of interesting people through it and always had the feeling that they were happy that this sport, dominated by white, is becoming more multicultural.
The main reason why few people practice color sports outdoors is that these sports are simply too expensive. I wanted to practice this sport since childhood, but I couldn't afford it with my modest pocket money. It wasn't until I started my IT career that I finally had money for a bike. I used to do athletics and met more different colored people (Indians, Asians, South Americans). That's why I think that not everyone is racist in general, but many have almost no contact with people from other communities. Most are not racist per se, but simply have no experience of what could be offensive and what not. However, I can only speak of my experiences here in Switzerland.
  • 5 0
 Yes I agree with you and what I've been trying to say in my other comments. The mountain biking community has been the one place where I have never been discriminated
  • 8 6
 You have to ask yourself though why the community doesn't help bring the sport to those who can't reach it. I'm in the same position as you, and my family is still very poor. I went and bought my little brother a $2000 hardtail because I wanted him to have the same enjoyment as I have been fortunate enough to gain myself. The reason this doesn't happen is because the community is, as you say, extremely insular and simply ignorant of those around them. I see comments like "POC clearly just don't want to go MTB, otherwise why don't you see them?". I think that encapsulates the problem very neatly. I'm glad PB is picking up the torch. Of course, people in a community that are so insular often find the light too bright and that it hurts their eyes. I suggest sunglasses.
  • 6 3
 @KxPop: "POC clearly just don't want to go MTB, otherwise why don't you see them?". No one is seriously using this argument. Even in this thread where people are accusing others of it, its just due to poor wording. Mountain biking is expensive case in point, I see these discussions taking place over in the ski world and people just need to accept its expensive, and not some overtly racist reason you don't see more people up an down the socio-economic ladder getting involved. And also demographics aside, you take a poll of your average joe and they will for the most part consider cycling a nerdy hobby/have no interest in getting involved. We're in a definite echo chamber here, just accept most of the world considers this hobby a dorky one.
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 @pbfan08: people have used that argument all through this thread bro
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 Before making suggestions it's important to look at what you do well and what actions you can take that will actually have an impact.

Core competency: writing articles. If you can use revenue to support other organizations or participate in other initiatives that's also good, but your main strength is producing content.

#1 Write a piece following up with brands, especially the large brands with high visibility, to find out what they're doing to better represent POC. Put pressure on them to actually represent these demographics and not just throw money at the issue. Let them know that you intend to follow up with them in a specific time frame to find out how they have been able to accomplish these goals. This will breed accountability.

#2 Write a series on people who work in the industry. The great news is that this doesn't even have to be about any specific demographic but is a great opportunity to equally represent men/women and all nationalities. This website focuses largely on the top 100 or so riders in the world and new tech, with the occasional piece about people who work in the industry. When those articles do come up they seem to be really popular, so write more of those! I think it's super interesting to learn about the engineering, marketing, product development etc people who are involved in the industry.

#3 Corporate vision. If you have one it's time to revisit it, and if not it's time to write one. Many companies get this wrong so bare with me, because if you do it right it can completely shape an organizaton. Corporate vision needs to be actionable, not just idealistic. Check out the link I've copied below. The 3 categories I would recommend using for this process are Purpose, Values, and Principles. Most importantly the principles category will help guide your editorial staff in the kind of content they create. Fair warning, if you make this statement public people will hold you accountable if you don't abide by it. hbr.org/2014/09/your-companys-purpose-is-not-its-vision-mission-or-values

In summation, use what you do best to bring better representation for all people. Use your power in the industry to put pressure on big companies to do more. Create values and principles that guide your editorial staff and hold them accountable to these standards.

If other people have constructive ideas please do add them below!
  • 9 2
 Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate everyone coming with constructive ideas.

#1 is a great call. We'll pull something together next week.

#2 will happen in a slightly different format. Stay tuned.

#3 needs updating and will be revisited along with our community guidelines.
  • 2 3
 @brianpark: Are you guys going to be deleting all the racist, hateful, or plainly ignorant comments in this thread?
  • 7 2
 @KxPop: I think they have already removed a significant amount of content and suspended a few members. People are entitled to their opinions and it would be heavy handed and not beneficial to remove things one might deem simply as ignorant, as long as it was shared in a respectful way. Hateful and racist on the other hand is where it crosses over into creating a toxic environment and in my opinion they've done a pretty good job at eliminating those comments.
  • 3 5
 @friendlyfoe: I think respectfully sharing toxic views is a slippery slope. Just look at where white rights and men's rights movements have gotten us to today.
  • 27 3
 Patagonia's, Becoming Ruby is a great piece on POC in our sport. Check it out if you've not yet seen it.
  • 9 0
 Brothers of Climbing from REI is also a well made documentary about POC in the outdoors.

  • 22 2
 This is a great first step and I'm looking forward to seeing the next few. Thanks Brian and Sarah! I know the MTB community is full of amazing people but over the past few months that has been shaken a bit by the comment section on a few articles here on PB and elsewhere. I still trust that the majority of people in the MTB community are amazing and love bringing newcomers into the sport but it's not enough to write off the rest as 'a few bad apples'. We've all heard that phrase too often and it just lets us avoid the harder questions and conversations about how we can make this sport better.
  • 2 0
 I believe that the majority of people don't actually bother with the comments section.
  • 20 2

I love mountain biking. I was fortunate enough to grow up in Bellingham, WA. I first rode trails like Arsenio and Intestine up on Galbraith almost 25 years ago with my Dad.

That said, I've only recently recognized the role that privilege and systemic racism have played in me having this opportunity. My ancestors came to Bellingham over a hundred years ago. But they were white. And historically, only white people have been welcome in Bellingham.

What if my ancestors were Coast Salish peoples who were forced onto reservations by white settlers in 1855, and later had their families destroyed through forced boarding schools? I might not be mountain biking today.

What if my ancestors were the Chinese workers expelled by the campaign of hate in 1884? I might not be mountain biking today.

What if my ancestors were the South Asian workers forced to flee across the border by the racist mob in 1907? I might not be mountain biking today.

What if my ancestors were the Japanese residents (and American citizens) who were taken to internment camps in 1942? They did not return to Bellingham. I might not be mountain biking today.

What if my ancestors were people of color that tried to buy property here in the 1940's, only to find that the deed stated ownership was limited to "members of the white race?" I might not be mountain biking today.

What if my ancestors were black men and women who were driven to the county line and told not to return throw the process of "sundowning?" I might not be mountain biking today.

Systemic racism and privilege permeate ALL aspects of our society. In places like Bellingham, there is a tendency to assume racism is something that happens in the deep south, or worse, used to happen in the deep south but ended with the civil rights movement. In reality, communities located in some of our most beautiful places have been the most exclusionary towards people of color for hundreds of years. We need to snap out of the idea that we are simply "lucky" or "blessed" to live in beautiful places. Naming these realities is a great start.<